What if the current state of Israel had never been created

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Jul 26 2006, 10:59 PM) [snapback]292958[/snapback]</div>

From personal experience, I can tell you this is false (aside from the fact that Man created God in his image). Whatever conveniently fits your faith...

 

I disagree with you. Jesus came into the world to save it, not to condemn it. But there is only one way to God, the Father, and that is through His Son, Jesus. He is the Way, The Truth, and The Light; and NO ONE comes to the Father but by Him.

The difference between the Muslim and the Christian beliefs are pretty wide.

The Christian believes that Jesus is the divine Son of God, who came to earth to show us how to live with one another.

He then willingly gave up His life by allowing Himself to be crucified on the cross.

Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sin.

What is sin? Sin, in the religious sense, is the breaking of a covenant. Or in this case, breaking one of God's commands/laws.

In the bible, Moses was given the Ten Commandments to help show the people what it was that God required of them to live a life pleasing to God.

But as we all know, as hard as we try, we cannot do this, because if you break one of the laws, you are guilty as if you had broken all of them. And this goes back to the sin nature that man was born with ever since the time that Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden. As a matter of fact, it was there in the Garden of Eden that God not only drove Adam & Eve out from the Garden, but He also sacrificed animals and covered their nakedness with the skins of the animals. Here was the shedding of blood, once again, for the remission of sins.

Man for many years under the Old Testament requirments set forth by God, sacrificed animals by pouring out their blood on an altar. This was a forerunner for the death of Jesus on the cross. But God in His mercy had a much better plan that there would be one sacrifice, through His Son Jesus on the cross, made for all men, once and for all, for all time as we know it here on earth.

This precious sacrifice of God's only Son, Jesus, paved the way so that man could be reconciled to God by accepting the gift of forgiveness for all his sins, (past, present, & future).

The men, women, and children in accepting this gift of forgiveness and spending eternal life with God the Father, and Jesus the Son, have now become the sons & daughters of the Most High God. And that is what is known as a personal relationship to the Father and to the Son.

Because we accept Jesus not only as the Son of God, but as Lord, and Saviour, we now have a personal relationship with Him. We are just as much as the seed of Abraham as Issac is, and this also makes us not only a friend of God but brothers and sisters to Jesus.

Hence, such a relationship is based on love which was initiated by God the Father. It is known as the love of God, the Father, for all of mankind.

Now tell me what other religious belief has a god that is so loving that he is willing to lay down his life so that they might not only have a personal relationship with but also live forever with him?

I don't know of any other belief/religion that can make that claim.

There is a parable in the bible about a wedding held in the home of the host. The guests when they arrive at the home must be wearing the apparel that the host has provided for them in order to enter into the home and be a part of the festivities. If they are found not to be wearing the appropiate apparel, then they are thrown out of the home into the darkness of the night.

And so when one receives the forgiveness offered by Jesus for his sins, then they become clothed in the appropiate wedding apparel and enter into the festivities.

But if one does not have the appropiate apparel, you are escorted out of the home.

Make no bones about it, one makes a choice when deciding where to spend all eternity.

Not making a choice, is making a choice not to make a choice.

Now, it is my understanding the Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the divine Son of God but believe that He is a prophet. They do not believe that God has any sons or daughters, or even that Jesus was His Son.

The Muslim belief involves believing in God but they do not have a personal relationship with God because the only way to the Father is by coming through the Son. So by God's own definition, unless you have a personal relationship with His Son, Jesus, you can't have a personal relationship with Him.

And so the Muslim cannot possibly have a personal relationship with God the Father unless that person comes to God the Father by His Son, Jesus; and they do not believe that God has a Son named Jesus.

There are many Muslims as well as others, who have come to receive God the Father's forgiveness for all their sins through Jesus.

You can too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Jul 26 2006, 11:15 PM) [snapback]293022[/snapback]</div>

I thought this was a discussion on the state of Israel?

So if us Jews are the chosen ones, I guess we have a "direct" line to God. We give Jesus (a fellow Jew) a little wink and elbow in the ribs as we pass by.

The fact remains, that any state full of Jews would constantly have to watch its back. There are just too many anti-semites in this world.

Let's face it, Jews were always the "bankers"...and no one "likes" the person they owe money to. Over centuries and centuries, this "hatred/jealousy" has grown, and the actual reasons for the hatred have become blurred and generalized based on stereotypes. It certainly does not help that God referred to the Jews as the "chosen ones", as this has just given even more reason for people to express their "hatred/jealousy".

Would the middle-east be any safer? No way! These groups have killed each other forever, and will continue to do so. The only thing placing Israel there did was divert their attention from killing each other for a while...however, as you see in Iraq now, it is just a matter of time!

 

Good point mssmith... let's keep it on topic.

Like I said before... the extremist groups are the ones doing the fighting... not the moderates... just to make sure that's clear. In my view, if Israel was placed in Europe and not the Middle East, here's what I'd think would happen... the extremist groups (Shiite vs Sunni) would keep killing each other... eventually the majority moderates would see the stupidity in this and reign in some control over them. The problem we've had is the West has too often interfered with the Middle East and created the conditions ripe for a demon in the Middle East (namely British installing the Saud family, Iran, and Afghanistan).

This complicates things, and from what I know these terror groups are only recent in history. These guys are full of pride (as with every damn religious/nationalistic/ethnic group)... and people meddling in the Middle East should have known better. I think it's a load of bull that the terror groups would overtake Islam and threaten others if left to their own ends. Most of you just don't understand how Islam works or how Muslims think. I grew up a Muslim, and I can tell you at least half the stuff said of Islam in here is total bunk.

 

It is a discussion on the state of Israel and how it came to be today. Many people today, including some of the Israelites/Jews and Muslims have forgotten, should I say for a lack of a better word, how the war originally started. If you see in my previous postings it explains how it came to be.

The interesting thing is that the bible says that when we see the leaves start to sprout on the fig tree you know that it won't be too long before the fruit of the figs will soon follow.

This in essence tells us what is happening in the world today. It means that the Messiah or Jesus is at the very threshold of returning once again to reclaim His bride: all His followers including the Jews for Jesus.

Like wise, the Messiah, (which is Jesus), has already come once, as a lamb, when He was crucified on the cross.

The next time He comes it will be on a white horse ready to do battle, not with people but with the evil one, the father of all lies, the devil himself.

The point is that the devil knows that he has little time to take with him all those who do not want to receive the Way to eternal life which is through Jesus the Son of God.

All people have the opportunity to make this choice while they are STILL LIVING.

When a person who has not received Jesus as their Savior and Lord and then physically dies before doing so, then he has died in his sins. In other words, that person did not receive the appropiation of forgiveness for his sins through the shed blood of Jesus when he died on the cross.

As a result, the old testament and the new testament in the bible, (which confirms or bears witness to the word of the old testament), the sins of such a person has separated him from God the Father, and Jesus the Son, for all eternity.

This is known as spiritual death. It means that person will not be spending eternity with God the Father or Jesus the Son, (also known as the Messiah), but that he will spend all eternity in hell.

God does not make this choice, man does.

The time is so short. What you see happening here on earth in the physical realm is just a glimpse of what is actually happening in the spiritual realm.

The bible also says that God's chosen ones will be jealous of those who have such a relationship and will begin to search Him out once again. When the Jews seek the Lord their God with their whole hearts, God will not stop at nothing to bring His people back to His bosom and to their homeland, the State of Israel.

That's why I said, God will not share His glory with anyone including the U. S. of A.

It will be God who will fight the battle for His chosen ones, and we know who wins this battle.

For complete details of the upcoming battle, read the Book of Revelation in the Bible.

 

Look... I'll give you the example of Pakistan. You all heard about the whole controversy surrounding the Da Vinci Code... well it has no effect on Muslim people (to some Muslims it's actually quite hilarious)... considering that... why do you think the Pakistanis voted to ban the film from their country? (not that I agree with the decision, but whatever)

Here's the answer... because the tiny minority Christian groups voiced their dissent, and the Pakistani Muslims sympathized for them and banned the film.

http://world.christianpost.com/article/20060604/1615.htm

And whaddya know... I'm searching google news for the stories and this story pops up: Iran... IRAN... has banned the republication of the Da Vinci Code booK for the sake of their Christian minority!!!!

http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2006...an.html?ref=rss


I'm atheist, but I see the good in people and not just the negative (though I'll admit for some reason it's easier focusing on the negative). Pakistan is taking care of the shiite and sunni terrorists who bomb each other in their country. Saudi Arabia is going on with reforms.

Call up your local Muslim... if you're nice to them and they're not scared of you they will invite you to their homes and treat you like royalty... some of these desis and arabs are the most hospitable people you'll ever find.

----------------
And loveit... proselytize all you want... just know that I see straight through the bull.

 

Getting back to the State of Israel theme...

What % of the current population of Pakistan is Jewish? What was that % 50 and 100 years ago. The same question for Iraq, Iran, Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Ethiopia, Turkey and other Middle East countries where Muslims make up the majority of the population.

You can also answer how many synagogues can be found in these countries.

Then compare to Israel - what % of its population is Muslim and how many mosques are located there.

Then, please compare the state of individual rights and liberties found for each group in their respective countries.

I have found it amusing that as Israel builds its separation wall (obviously a very successful undertaking since Islamofascists have been nearly inpotent in getting through as it nears completion) that Muslims in its area desire to be on the Israeli side of it rather than the "Arab" side of it.

I also wonder why we had to evacuate Jews from the Gaza Strip prior to GIVING it back to the Palestinians? Could it be that the Palestinians would have slaughtered them?? They would have been unable to enjoy life, liberty and freedom as CITIZENS of the PA??? Why?????

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mssmith95 @ Jul 27 2006, 02:38 AM) [snapback]293032[/snapback]</div>

Humans have killing each since the beginning. It isn't isolated to just one group.

 

And so it is your right to be what you are.

On another note, if man were good, then why are we killing each other?

There is no one on the face of this earth who can truly be called good because we have all sinned in one way or another, including myself.

Therefore I have need of a Savior. It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.

Only the fool says in his heart there is no God.

The only reason you can't see God's truth is because you are blinded.

I can only say that I hope that you don't make a decision you will regret for all eternity.

Reverence for God is the beginning of wisdom.

You cannot discuss the state of Israel without the background & history, including religion.

The one true fact is, that as long as there is a Jew on the face of this earth, you know that God exists.
The Jew is a testament to the fact that God does exist and He will chose to bless those people who bless the Jew.

It is not the Jew who is causing any problem, but others who refuse to see God for Who He truly is.

That is one reason why man or the devil himself will never be able to destroy the State of Israel or be without God's Chosen Ones, the Jews.

True, they have suffered much at the hands of man men but they are still in existence. Such suffereings beginning with Moses, then Jesus, then when the Christians who were the first Jewish believers, up through Hitler, and many more.

Through out all of history, the Jew still exists and always will.

Only when there are no Jews can you even begin to think that there is no God and even by the way things are going now, I don't think that is going to ever happen because past history has attested to the fact that the Lord will not allow His people to be wiped off the face of the earth.

Hence, the war between the evil one and the Almighty God goes on between those who live for the Lord according to His precepts, and those who do not.

Like I said before, God will step in and fight the battle Himself. He will not allow any country nor any man to win this battle for Him, otherwise He will not get the glory.

Once again, even the U. S. of A. will not win this battle for Israel but the Lord Almighty will do it for them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Jul 27 2006, 01:19 PM) [snapback]293263[/snapback]</div>

becareful, you might beat windstrings

 

Look up the figures yourself you neofascist. I said what I had to say... from your posts I deem that your solution is genocide. (IE "The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp those of a particular ethnic group or nation.")

You heard the hoopla about Al Qaeda trying to shore up support for the Arabs? Same for Hezbollah? These are fringe groups... the vast majority of Muslims will never join them unless someone does something stupid like launch a nuke at Saudi Arabia (which I deem you would love to see). The most Arabs will ever do (save for a relative tiny minority) is voice their support for Al Qaeda but not ever do anything for them.

Your mentality is just as repressive as the minority Islamofascists. If you really care about freedom, at least voice your opinion of the Lord's Resistance Army.

Unrelated but needs to be said of the neocons browsing the forum:
"Pro-life or Pro-war. Make up your f**king mind."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 27 2006, 11:01 AM) [snapback]293173[/snapback]</div>

 

Mirza, I take it you are a Muslim. Am I correct? If so, have you actually read the Koran?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Jul 28 2006, 08:12 PM) [snapback]294172[/snapback]</div>

Voiceing support IS supporting terrorists and succombing to the terrorists fate!

No "Islam" or "Arab" group effectivley attempts to deter or sperak out against any of the terrorist (Hesbollah, Hamas...) organizations. Therefore they tacitly agree with them and support them. and Yes I know what happens to any group if it does speak out against the terrorists. They are slaughtered without mercy. So, two questions:

Who do you support? terrorists or those who combat the terrorists? (and yes those that combat terrorists kill untold numbers of innocent civillians, the difference is that it isn't their INTENTION to do so)

and two:If not the terrorists, how do you stop them? (without giving them everything they want?)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Jul 28 2006, 08:12 PM) [snapback]294172[/snapback]</div>

I'm tired of this statement by "Liberals". You can be pro-life and pro-war. The difference is BABIES don't blow up pizza shops and discos!

Oh, by the way, a very importnat distinction between "nepcons" and the terrorists, Neocons ACTUALLY have the power to kill all the innocent people in any theater of combat but DON'T (actually going way out of the way not to), the Terrorists only wish they did, a

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 26 2006, 05:24 PM) [snapback]292768[/snapback]</div>

Spoken like someone masquerading as an American citizen, whose true loyalty lies with Israel. Perhaps when push comes to shove, America will need to set up internment camps again or some sort of Guatanamo Bay-like facility for Israeli spys. Real Americans won't allow our country to get sucked into World War III over Israel, no matter how much rabid neo-cons call out for it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Jul 27 2006, 10:31 AM) [snapback]293148[/snapback]</div>

You are deluding yourself, Revelations was written about the Roman Empire. People just like you have been twisting meaning out of that self-contradictory rubbish you call the Bible for nearly two thousand years (and out of the Old Testament even longer), and every single one of them have wrongly thought that they were living in the "End Times" and wasted then their lives in imaginary servitude to their particular cult-fathers. Consider just for a moment why it is that God has never once talked back to you, to the end that you have had to invent the own miracles in your life. Then again, if you have heard the voice of God talking to you, get some psychiatric help before you go on a killing spree.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Jul 30 2006, 10:47 PM) [snapback]294847[/snapback]</div>

And what if BOTH sides of a conflict are terrorists?

 

LOL... everytime you try to argue a point that doesn't follow black/white thinking you're told to either support terrorists or the ones who combat them. If you cared to read anything I've ever posted (and I don't blame you for not doing so, honestly... I sure wouldn't ), you'd see my stance very clearly. I am very much Pro-American... in terms of ideals... but I feel they haven't always been followed... especially when it comes to the Middle East.

I am NOT Muslim, I am atheist. You might ask why do defend Muslims as a group when I'm anti-religion? Because they are unjustly ridiculed and derided. I've read the Quran.... I'm aware of the stuff that's in there... but it's no worse than some of the stuff stated in the Bible. What I do know is that many Muslims disagree with terrorism.

You ought to check out the Skeptic's Annotated Bible .

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Subversive @ Jul 31 2006, 05:24 AM) [snapback]295028[/snapback]</div>

Then you're already dead or don't believe in anything (so you may be a nighlist!) and it doesn't matter.

I you don't fight terrorists then you believe what they believe or have succomb to their will (or have been decapitated by the them). Either way life as you thought you knew it is over.

You may not support the WAY in which someone fights the terrorists, but either stifle your complaints or OFFER A BETTER WAY. (Neville Chamberlin need not apply)

 

Hell, just ask Mel Gibson what to do...I'm sure he would have a good solution.