What Really is Holding Back Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles?

The cost you calculated are based on the cells that last only 500 to 1000 cycles. If you put that in a plug-in car, you will need to change it every two years.

 

First, I believe GM has exclusive OEM right with A123 and Valiance (two of the contractors GM is working with for Volt). A123 claimed that their battery is safe (for which I have seen video on youTube, quite impressive), and can last 15 years of use. However, the cost has not been revealed. However, the fact that GM was talking about leasing Volt not selling them tells me that the battery may be very expensive for 40-mile range (target of Volt).

 

Cheap small NiMh EV's WOULD be feasable right now if Chevron did not own the patent on large format NiMh batteries. The Prius battery was designed to be as large as possible without infringing on that patent. I believe that patent runs out in 2010.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Sep 11 2007, 01:05 PM) [snapback]510725[/snapback]</div>

seawolf, it's important to understand that "soft hits" can extend a battery's lifespan significantly. If you use the middle 70% SOC, a battery may last forever.

Nilar has an NiMH battery that can tolerate 2000 cycles, or 300,000 soft hits. A plug-in hybrid is ideal because the engine can be used to prevent low SOC on the pack, and Battery Management can be used to preven SOC above 85%. This effectively takes the 10 mile pack mentioned and makes it a 7 mile pack, however. But this problem is not insurmountable. But even using the middle 80% could give you 10,000 cycles, so this would give you 8 miles of electric range on the theoretical 10 mile pack.

Since I bought my RAV4 EV 6 weeks ago, I've become convinced that nothing is holding back plug-ins other than the status quo and complacency.

I've been plugging in my car almost every day and it works great, on 11 year old technology.

Yes, I use the middle of the pack. The middle 70 miles of the 100 mile pack. Pack capacity is well within a plug-in's reach.

Nate

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Sep 11 2007, 05:14 PM) [snapback]510809[/snapback]</div>

I'm not familiar with plug-ins, so pardon my ignorance.

Where do you plug this car in?

And am I understanding correctly that you generally drive about 70 miles between plug-ins, and the max possible is about 100 miles?

Thanks

 

The title of this thread is:

What Really is Holding Back Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles?

Try watching "Who Killed The Electric Car", out on DVD now.

In lieu of that, check out several YouTube clips available... start with this one, (Dateline produced)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=911huduMpRI

The subsequent parts will come up when load that one.

 

My friend Darell has such a great website about the Toyota Rav4 EV. I bought mine about 6 weeks ago (used, it's a 2002 with 60,000 miles).

http://www.evnut.com

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(joe1347 @ Sep 11 2007, 04:48 PM) [snapback]510789[/snapback]</div>

The cheapest place is on ebay. Try searching "DC9360" for basically a pack of 10 cells. You can get a pack of 10 cells for about $100 shipped. That makes $10 each cell. I believe Hymotion used these M1 cells to make the Plug-in Prius conversions. You can find a very impressive life cycle of the M1 cell here. The claimed 7,000 cycles is achieved when drawing only 5kW (6.7hp) at 1C. A123 cells are capable of delivering "out of this world" 150kW (201hp) at the expense of lower life cycle. MG2 is only capable of 50kW. That means, the pack will not get drawn more than 10C. We should really use the number of cycles at 5C (guessing average rate) to be realistic.

I remember seeing the spec as 3.3v (instead of 3.6v) with 2.3AH. So you will need about 660 cells to get 5kWh. The pack cost goes up to $6,600 with $10 per cell ebay price. [edit] I found the spec of M1 cell. The life cycle depends greatly on the temperature and the rate of charge/discharge. Hymotion offers 5 years warranty on L5 pack for $10k indicates that M1 cells might not last 10 years on Prius PHEV application.

M1HD cells can store more energy per weight than M1 but deliver power at slower rate. They are designed for PHEV because PHEV will have more cells than HEV anyway. M1HD cells are prismatic and we don't know how much they will cost.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(joe1347 @ Sep 11 2007, 04:48 PM) [snapback]510789[/snapback]</div>

The cheapest place is on ebay. Try searching "DC9360" for basically a pack of 10 cells. You can get a pack of 10 cells for about $100 shipped. That makes $10 each cell. I believe Hymotion used these M1 cells to make the Plug-in Prius conversions. You can find a very impressive life cycle of the M1 cell here. The claimed 7,000 cycles is achieved when drawing only 5kW (6.7hp) at 1C. A123 cells are capable of delivering "out of this world" 150kW (201hp) at the expense of lower life cycle. MG2 is only capable of 50kW. That means, the pack will not get drawn more than 10C. We should really use the number of cycles at 5C (guessing average rate) to be realistic.

I remember seeing the spec as 3.3v (instead of 3.6v) with 2.3AH. So you will need about 660 cells to get 5kWh. The pack cost goes up to $6,600 with $10 per cell ebay price. [edit] I found the spec of M1 cell. The life cycle depends greatly on the temperature and the rate of charge/discharge. Hymotion offers 5 years warranty on L5 pack for $10k indicates that M1 cells might not last 10 years on Prius PHEV application.

M1HD cells can store more energy per weight than M1 but deliver power at slower rate. They are designed for PHEV because PHEV will have more cells than HEV anyway. M1HD cells are prismatic and we don't know how much they will cost.

 

5 *usable* kWh would actually get you about 20 miles, not 10.
.
_H*

 

5 *usable* kWh would actually get you about 20 miles, not 10.
.
_H*

 

My guess is that PHEVs in production would open pandora's box, if you will. Once high quality batteries go into production for a PHEV, the price of the cells is going to come down quickly. I would think that after a relatively short time people will be wondering where the full EVs are. Once those appear the cash cow that is dealer service agreements will be gone.

That and conservatism. No one wants to take the risk now. There's no hugely compelling business reason to do it.

 

You say Chevron has the Paten right on the large format battery pack? Big oil protecting it's right to steal for the citizenry again.

After reading all the forgoing, It seems to boil down to $ and Guts. I would have thought that Gates or some rich bunch of movie stars would have ponied up the required startup money. Where is Soros in all this?

The battery technology sounds like it here just needs some kick off money to get them in production and watch the prices drop and they will, the power of large scale production unstoppable. They will replace dollars with dimes. Just look at computers and chips that the way the cost will drop.

The real problem is most have too much vested interest in the status quo. The car companies sure don't want to change and neither do the oil companies, things are just fine thank you very much.

 

reluctance to spend money on EV's or other technology that enocurages automobiles the rely more on electricity than the current status quo.

i also had a chance to get a RAV 4 EV... but balked at the $60,000 price tag... i regret decision daily now.

i have purchased a Zenn. it does not have the range or the speed, but will still cover over 80% of my driving needs and it was only $14,000 after 35 mph upgrade

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwood @ Sep 11 2007, 03:49 PM) [snapback]510746[/snapback]</div>

Then why did Toyota reduce the battery pack voltage and cell count on the Gen II, rather than stay with the "large as possible" philosophy?

And how does Ford get away with a larger 330V battery pack withut infringing on the patent?

 

ford uses the smallest cell size.... basically over 200 D cells