1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

What to check before 12 v battery replacement?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Jacob04Prius, Nov 2, 2021.

  1. Jacob04Prius

    Jacob04Prius Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2020
    4
    0
    0
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I believe my 2004 with smartkey needs a new 12v battery but before I cough up $250+ I wonder WHAT ELSE SHOULD I CHECK?.

    Current battery is Optima yellow top of unknown age. Car has ~197000 miles.
    With engine running voltage across terminals is ~14.8 (measured with VOM), but battery doesn't seem to charge (voltage decreases despite driving car 10-15 miles). At some point RTD (red triangle of doom) comes on. Charging battery in or out of car with old fashioned 4 amp charger brings it up to about 12.55 volts, but this diminishes to about 12.15 v overnight (battery completely disconnected). Whatever voltage is disconnected, connecting it in car results in ~0.1 volt drop.

    Also, should I replace this battery with another Optima, OEM or something else?

    Thanks!
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,688
    48,943
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    you can get a free load test at most auto parts stores. if you're getting the triangle, you should really have the trouble codes read. a new 12v to replace one of unknown age and 12.5 max is not a complete waste of money, as long as your willing to spend whatever it takes to fix it if the 12v isn't the issue.
    i like the oem, but there's nothing wrong with buying the cheapest one you can find either.

    since you're getting 14.8 volts from the inverter charging system, that tells me it's trying hard to keep the 12v charged without much success.
    you might also have a parasitic drain when the car is off.
     
    SFO likes this.
  3. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2017
    5,286
    4,225
    0
    Location:
    Northern California
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Generally speaking when you have warning lights being displayed on the dash there are OBD2 codes being stored in the ECUs (computers), how long has the RTD been making an appearance, and was that the only warning light being displayed?

    Next time the RTD appears find a hybrid compatible OBD2 scanner (many chain auto parts store will offer free scans, or a friendly mechanic may scan it for free) and retrieve the stored codes (DTCs), then post them here for additional guidance. Realize that the 'free scan' may not be compatible or able to retrieve the stored DTCs. Disconnecting the 12v will erase the stored codes (DTCs) and prevent you from knowing what might be wrong with the vehicle. Always record or write down the codes before disconnecting the 12v battery.

    You can take the 12v to a local auto parts chain for a free test. The OEM 12v from the toyota dealer may be price competitive with the offerings from the auto part stores, and likely of higher quality. I would avoid the Optima. Some members here use wheelchair batteries.

    FYI : you're moderated until you've posted 5 times.
     
  4. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2018
    7,035
    2,782
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius c
    Model:
    Four
    It is normal for the charging voltage to drop some after the car runs for a while.

    It is NOT normal for a battery with no load to lose anywhere near that much voltage overnight.
    You NEED a new battery. You don't need to "check" anything else.

    Any "name brand" exact replacement should be fine.
    Optima had a run of reliability problems a couple of years ago but I think they are past that now.
     
  5. Jacob04Prius

    Jacob04Prius Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2020
    4
    0
    0
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Thanks everyone for the replies.
    My wishful thinking was that the RTD and codes were erroneous due to the faulty 12v battery.
    I hooked the car up to Techstream and got the following codes.
    P3009-526 high voltage power short circuit
    P3000-123 battery control system
    and sometimes the dreaded
    P0A80 replace hybrid battery pack

    Looking at the individual block voltage I see 15.41 to 15.98 for all but block 8 (14.63) one time
    16.3 to 16.6 except block 8 (15.03) another time

    So is this one low module a death sentence for my HV battery?
    Is there any chance a healthy 12v battery will alter the codes or readings? Can low 12v battery voltage cause erroneous codes or other readings?
    I know I'm grasping at straws here.
     
  6. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2017
    5,286
    4,225
    0
    Location:
    Northern California
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Depends on your DIY attitude. How many miles are currently on the vehicle, and is the HV battery an untouched original?
    Not the codes (DTCs) or readings that you've offered above.
    Again, not the reported DTCs above. It would need to be pretty low for that too happen, and it still wouldn't throw those DTCs.

    Did you need the repair manual workups for the above DTCs, or can you find them yourself? (FYI : P3009 is AKA P0AA6)

    Given the reported DTCs, and assuming that you have some time, you may want to tear into the pack and check the HV battery ecu and voltage sense wires for corrosion. While in the general area you could also inspect or clean the HV battery fan as well.
     
  7. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    6,089
    5,806
    0
    Location:
    Columbia, SC
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Touring

    Where are you in South Carolina?

    Take a look on Techstream Hybrid Control System tab. Look for the "ShortWave Highest value. What does it show? This is a measurement of the quality of isolation between the HV system and the car chassis. Perfect is 5.0v. I normally see 4.99v on cars in good condition. Anything less than that means you are having an issue develop. I think once it hits around 3.2 (?) it triggers the isolation fault code. The vast majority of times, this code is due to HV battery electrolyte leakage making a path to the battery case.

    A good way to test your blocks voltages is after the car has sat overnight or longer. With your foot NOT on the brake, press the power button 2 times. This will allow you to go online with the car with the engine not starting and not charging the battery. Then look at voltages with TS and you'll be able to see them 'as-is'. It usually makes it quite clear which blocks are a problem. You may not have anything completely obvious, since all you have is a P0A80 and not a code for a specific block yet. The computer knows something is going on, but just hasn't figured out exactly where.
     
  8. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2020
    8,049
    1,395
    0
    Location:
    Durham NC
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    That battery should fall on its face in a load test optima has no bearing at this point that battery should be holding 12 5 12 7 overnight easily easily so I don't think you have to spend 250 bucks AGM batteries in that size and whatnot can be had for in the 140 range if you look carefully I like DEkA getting hard to find I have an advance auto gold AGM in my 09 I think

    SM-A715F ?
     
  9. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    54,658
    38,202
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    For the 12 volt battery, you can assess it's condition with one of the electronic load testers. I'm using a Solar BA5; think the latest similar iteration is BA9:

    https://cloreautomotive.com/product/ba9/

    Ancel BA101 looks good too.

    Both are around $70 CDN for me (through Amazon), so maybe $40~50 USD in the States?
     
    #9 Mendel Leisk, Nov 3, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2021
  10. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2018
    7,035
    2,782
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius c
    Model:
    Four
    Stop grasping and replace the 12 V battery which is unquestionably worn out.......and then see what you are left with.
    OR....just sell or trade it in as is.
     
  11. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2018
    7,035
    2,782
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius c
    Model:
    Four
    When it drops to 12.15 overnight with no load.......there is no need to do any additional testing.
     
    Mendel Leisk likes this.
  12. Another

    Another Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2021
    1,802
    510
    0
    Location:
    Naples, Florida
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    occam's razor
     
  13. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    54,658
    38,202
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    I bought my BA5 close to 10 years back now (speculating a bit), and have used it on various batteries, on various cars, thinking long-haul. :)
     
  14. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2020
    8,049
    1,395
    0
    Location:
    Durham NC
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    I just have a fluke 116 meter and a few chargers with diagnostic modes .

    SM-A715F ?
     
  15. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2018
    7,035
    2,782
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius c
    Model:
    Four
    Yes, it is a good piece of equipment, no doubt.
    But sometimes it just is not necessary.
     
  16. Jacob04Prius

    Jacob04Prius Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2020
    4
    0
    0
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I sold the car. We're it not for physical problems and lack of a garage, I would have persisted and attempted to replace the bad modules in the battery.
    It seems to me that it wouldn't be that difficult to design the HV battery so that individual cells could be replaced safely and simply without removing the entire battery pack. When such an electric/hybrid car is available, I might buy it.
     
  17. Another

    Another Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2021
    1,802
    510
    0
    Location:
    Naples, Florida
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Was probably easy to sell in this market.
     
  18. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2018
    7,035
    2,782
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius c
    Model:
    Four
    BUT.....not worth the design effort.
    When the time comes that "cells" start going bad, the rest of them usually follow fairly soon.
    Most owners won't appreciate having to change a few cells every couple of months no matter how easy it is.

    The people posting in places like this who seem to enjoy tinkering with their hybrid batteries are a TINY minority among all hybrid owners.
    Indeed, a really LOT of owners don't even understand how a "simple" 12 V battery works.