What was hot, and not, in 2004

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by IsrAmeriPrius, Jan 17, 2005.

  1. IsrAmeriPrius

    IsrAmeriPrius Progressive Member

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    What was hot, and not, in 2004 Click here

    Most Overrated #1 ­ - Hybrids
    Questionable real world consumption numbers, resale value and long-term maintenance costs should keep the smart car buyer away from hybrids. But then, the Chevette was a best seller in its day, too.

    Like buying your decaf mocha at Starbucks, with hybrids, you get the exclusive opportunity to wait in line and pay a premuim price. You'll be in good company with million-per-flick Hollywood greenies Tom Hanks, Cameron Diaz and Susan Sarandon, who all drove a flock of Priuses to last year's Academy Awards.

    Most Underrated #1 ­ - Diesels
    With conspiracy theorists questioning the timing of their sudden proliferation--from the micro-miserly Smart car to the all-conquering V-10 Volkswagen Touareg--diesels came back big time in 2004. And why not? Big horsepower numbers may look good in a Car and Driver test-track comparo, but for the rest of us, its torque that walks the talk.
     
  2. flyingprius

    flyingprius New Member

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    We've already had this discussion before.
    We already know which one is better; it's not the one that has been banned in certain U.S. states because the pollutants are recognized to be too environmentally devastating.
     
  3. IsrAmeriPrius

    IsrAmeriPrius Progressive Member

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    Just in case that this is not self evident, that excerpt does not represent my personal opinion. It is taken from an article which was published in the Canadian news magazine, MacLeans.
     
  4. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    I used to be someone who promoted torque over horsepower but I noticed that high torque ratings in a diesel engine is just as OVERrated as horsepower ratings in gasoline engines. I compared engines in a UK Corolla. This is how it turned out:

    2.0 D-4D Diesel Manual (This is Toyota GB's latest diesel). It has 207lb-ft of torque. It took 10.6secs to 60.

    1.6 VVT-i Petrol Manual. 111lb-ft of torque and it takes 10.2 secs.

    It has just under 100lb-ft less, yet it takes longer to go to 60. A gas engine with 207lb-ft will probably take this car to 60 in 6secs? Granted, it depends on the gear ratios and such but I think too much of either is bad - hp OR torque. A balance would be more ideal.
     
  5. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Oh and diesels may emit fewer CO2 particles but NOX and HCs are higher than gas engines. Plus, the last time I checked, gas was at 84.9¢/litre while diesel was at 89.9¢/litre
     
  6. prberg

    prberg Member

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    I have to diagree with the author of this article (as most people on this board probably would). He mentions that maintenance costs would keep the smart car buyer from buying this car. My experience with the Prius (only 2 years) so far has shown maintence costs to be much less than my previous car.

    You can go 100,000 miles and the only required maintence is oil changes, air filters, and tire rotation (plus some visual inspections). I think that is darn good.

    While the fuel consumtion is not quite the 55-60 that is advertised it is still much higher than almost every vehicle out there. And if you look at the numbers advertised for other vehicles I think you will find most vehicles don't actually meet those numbers because of the way the EPA runs their tests.

    Just my 2 cents, love the prius and i'm sure I will never own a non-hybrid vehicle again. (once you go from 25MPG to 50MPG you never want to go back)
     
  7. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
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    how can someone comment on future maintenance costs of a new product? I have purchased many products that I thought to be of high quality but required astronomical maintenance costs. Meanwhile, I drove a Plymouth Reliant - which many people thought was 'disposable' - for five years and up to 135,000 miles with no unusual maintenance requirements.

    All I'm saying is that for someone to speculate about the future is just that, specualtion. My apologies to Dianne Worwick and Madam Spectra, but HOOIE!

    And I agree with prberg. I hope to never own another "normal" vehicle again.
     
  8. kingofgix

    kingofgix New Member

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    Resurrecting this 5 year old thread because it is a bit of a timecapsule about the "thinking" regarding hybrids at the time. We thought they were wrong then and now we know they were wrong. My 2004 Prius hasn't had anything but totally routine maintenance in 91,000 miles, and it was cheap maintenance at that! Not so much as a burned out light bulb in 6 years....and a solid 50 mpg. By far the most reliable and well made car I have ever owned.
     
  9. wwest40

    wwest40 Member

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    Sorry, what was true in '04 remains true even today.

    For hwy use quite a number of non-hybrid cars can be purchased that will exceed the FE of the Prius. And regretably IMMHO the current hybrid designs are going more for HP/torque over FE.

    I own a 2003 Prius and around town, "city" use, it averages 42 MPG.

    I was sincerely looking forward to the RXh, had actually pre-ordered one, and then when it came out it was clearly be marketed to the "boy-racer" mentality crowd (0-60 times was now "important"), as is the GSh and the LSh, that last one being the most embarrassing.

    Not that I wouldn't still buy a new Prius soon, but what is, IS.

    Personally I'm looking forward to a small, sub-2L, boxer4 multimode (Otto, Atkinson, Miller) DFI engine with SuperCharging in an upcoming CX-7 F/awd hybrid.

    50 MPH hwy and 40 MPG city.

    Has anyone thought of using a 10L/minute medical oxygen concentrator to pipe a higher level, other than atmospheric, of oxygen into the intake..??

    Less than $1000 purchase price and 500 watts consumption.
     
  10. Politburo

    Politburo Active Member

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    10L/min.. at 2,000 RPM that's 0.005L per rev, or 5mL. For a 4-cyl it's 2.5 mL/cyl/firing. Doesn't seem like you'd really increase the amount of O2 with such a small amount.

    Someone check my math...
     
  11. kingofgix

    kingofgix New Member

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    I can't really speak to the '02 or '03 Prius as I have an '04, but since you live in the US I have to disagree. I do not think there is ANY car currently (if ever) sold in the US that can equal the Prius II or III FE in the City or on the Highway.

    As a certifiable MPG nut I have owned a 1985 Honda Civic CRX HF and a 1992 Civic VX. Both of those cars could match my Prius on the Highway, but not in combined driving, but they were extremely small essentially 2 person cars that don't really compare. And they are no longer made and don't meet current emmision regs, so its moot.

    The diesel Jetta's come close on the highway but not in combined driving, and diesel is quite a bit more expensive than regular gas so from a "FE" standpont they aren't really that close. Plus, I've owned two and they both had more problems in one day than a Prius would have in a 100,000 miles. One of my Jetta's I got the dealer to take back so I wouldn't invoke the lemon law on them. I wouldn't own one if it got 1000 mpg.

    The original article mentioned cost to maintain. Virtually every credible source I have seen says the Prius is very cheap to maintain, as are hybrids in general. Despite the oft mentioned "complexity" I think the hybrid systems are a net benefit in terms of reliability and maintenance cost. The data over the past decade supports that pretty conclusively.
     
  12. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
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    When looking at actual fuel consumption and carbon footprint, what am I missing? It looks too easy for there to be an argument about this.
     

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  13. wwest40

    wwest40 Member

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    At 2000RPM in cruise mode how tightly is the throttle plate closed..??

    Atmospheric oxygen = ~20%

    WOT maximum intake: Each cylinder = 0.5L, 4 cycle engine, only two of those to fill each rev. = 2000 * 0.5 + 0.5 = 2000L/minute atmospheric intake at WOT.

    Only 400L/minute of oxygen.

    Assume 60 MPH and 48MPG(60 ounces/gallon), 1.25 ounce/mile/minute, 75 ounce/hour.

    14.7:1 mixture ratio.

    What would be the oxygen volume of exquivalent of 14.7 * 1 ounce of fuel each minute..??



    Anyone know the atmospheric equivalent to...

    I hope no one believes that the engine is efficient enough to actually pull in 2000L of atmosphere at WOT each minute...?

    Any estimates..??
     
  14. Politburo

    Politburo Active Member

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    Not sure what you're doing with the gallons to ounces conversion. 1 gallon is 128 fluid ounces.

    But the 14.7:1 ratio is a mass ratio, so we want units of mass. At 60 MPH and 48 MPG, (1/48) gallons per minute. It's about 6.16 lb/gal of gas, so 0.128 lb/minute of gas. 1.88 lb/min of air, which is 1.2041 kg/m^3. Play around with the units, and I get 710 L/min of air, 155 L/min of O2. You'd increase the O2 by 7%. What was the point again?

    Someone check my math...
     
  15. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Not according to the EPA. Mentioning 42mpg - that's just one's personal city mileage. Some of us never fall below the OLD epa, including myself. Even in the winter, my lowest tank average is over 50mpg and my best was over 75mpg.

    Thanks for the time capsuel kingofgix ... your point is well taken.

    .
     
  16. wwest40

    wwest40 Member

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    Okay, how much is a "gallon" of LOX...??
     
  17. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    Not according to Consumer Reports tests either. Wwest40 should see Best & worst cars review, best city/highway mpg.