WHATS THE BEST OIL? 0W20? GOOD?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LongRun @ Jun 2 2007, 08:05 PM) [snapback]454113[/snapback]</div>

Some people can just *never* be convinced of that fact. I went through a lot of legwork and some personal cost to PROVE just how sh***y the bulk dealer oil really is:

http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=14829&hl=

Almost two years later, and the dealer still has the inverted pipe for a breather. No dessiccating filter in sight. Perhaps the blanket recommendation of 5,000 miles or 6 months oil change has more to do with dealership CYA than what is best for the motor?

Oh, the motor oil in barrels is one thing. How about the bulk oil that is delivered by tanker, with no clear source of original production facility, or no reasonable assurance that the tanker was cleaned out before the oil delivery? Perhaps the same tanker was hauling used oil on the trip back to the refinery, then quickly turned around and refilled with "new" oil.

All that sodium and sulfur in the "new" oil makes me wonder ...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(thebrattygurl @ Jun 1 2007, 11:21 PM) [snapback]453755[/snapback]</div>

Do us a favor and try to grab a sample of that wonderful dealership oil, then have it sent off for testing.

http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=14829&hl=

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jun 3 2007, 07:48 PM) [snapback]454739[/snapback]</div>

Ever thought of switching dealers? I sure would.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Jun 3 2007, 11:07 PM) [snapback]454756[/snapback]</div>

Great idea. May I assume the next dealer won't have the same issues my current one does? I'll go around with a half dozen oil sample containers, ask each service department to fill one, send all them off, and wait for the results. Based on the results, I would then frequent that dealership, hoping they don't change oil suppliers every month like they all do.

BTW the cost to do such analysis would run me about $120 Cdn

I have a lot of industrial experience with oil distribution, and based on a cursory drive by of all dealerships here - foreign and domestic - they all use the bulk lube dispenser system. There are many advantages to doing so:

1. Bulk oil is far cheaper for the dealership to purchase, vs individual litre/quart bottles

2. Bulk lube servicing is quicker. Rather than a "technician" (The guy who last week was sweeping the lot) have to keep track of bottles, he just sets the dispenser on how much is needed and squeezes the handle, just like a service station fuel pump

3. All modern bulk lube systems can interface with the service department, which is the "proof" they have of servicing your car

Without following industry standard dispensing guidelines, such as avoiding cross contamination and using a proper desiccant breather on the bulk tank, one can only expect the absolute worst garbage oil in their car when serviced by a dealership or one of those Quick Lube places.

Unless one is willing to ask for a virgin oil sample of the dealership oil (I can almost guarantee they'll refuse, which should raise suspicion right there), and to send off used oil analysis, one cannot automatically assume the dealership oil is any better than what you can buy off the shelf in bottles. Certainly in my case, it was much, much worse!

I would be really curious to see the oil analysis from your Prius. Makes one wonder why Toyota got burned by some sludged up motors, and why they almost universally lowered the oil change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000 miles in North America.

However, even with the crap oil my dealer was using, the motor would probably be fine for the duration of the powertrain warranty. The dealership has an additional CYA here: Under the generic oil service intervals is an asterisk.

"If vehicle is operated under "severe" conditions, oil service interval of 3 months or 5,000 km is recommended." Naturally the dealership slaps a helpful service reminder dated three months from the present service.

So we're back to the 3,000 mile oil change interval. Among the "severe" operating conditions is Short Trip Under 10 km, Operation On Unpaved Dusty Roads, Extreme Hot Weather >35 C, Extreme Cold Weather <-20 C, Towing, etc etc etc.

As far as the issue of sludging, the current API specs have no requirement to prevent cold sludge or cold stuck rings. Current ACEA specs of Europe do require their oils to prevent cold sludge problems. Which is probably why the Prius operated in the EU has a terrifying 12 month or 10,000 mile oil service interval.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jun 3 2007, 08:34 PM) [snapback]454775[/snapback]</div>

It seems that you have some issues with the professional integrity of the dealers in your neck of the woods. If they are as bad as you make them out to be, I probably would have passed on the Prius and gone for some other brand that you had a better level of trust in. Personally, the Toyota dealer that I bought my Prius from is owned and operated by the same family and individual that owns and operates the other dealerships that I have done business with since 1995. I get treated with complete professional courtesy each time any of my cars come in for service, no issues with putting in Mobil1 in any of them (even to the point of using the Mobil1 oil filter). And, and, and. Hopefully, you will get to a place where you don't have issues. If not, you might want to consider another model of car. After all, it is just a car; nothing is worth the stress that you seem to be going through.

 

Well, there really is no point in trying to explain this any further. All I can suggest is that your faith in the lube service is misplaced, as most dealerships offer lube services as a loss leader.

Unless you have personally witnessed the dealership using oil from bottles, you really have no idea what ends up in your car. Ask this wonderful family owned dealership if they use a bulk lubricant dispensing system for oil changes, and ask them where they source the oil that ends up in the barrels or tote bins.

Yes, to me the Prius is just a car. I'm not "stressed" over it, the incident just served to confirm the suspicions and reports from others. All the dealerships here, foreign and domestic, with the exception of Mercedes and Porsche, utilize a generic "no name" bulk lube source.

Oh, unless you can personally witness the "lube tech" (Who last week was sweeping the lot and scrubbing the urinals) using your oil, you really have no guarantee the oil put in the car was yours. Unless you have a detailed used oil analysis immediately run to verify certain trace elements.

Locally, the Canadian Tire chains were famous for doing that: customer would demand a pricey synthetic, they would bill for it or accept the customer oil, and use the bulk mystery oil from the tote bin. A hidden camera investigation caught them.

Speaking of which:

http://www.knbc.com/video/9152183/detail.html

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jun 4 2007, 12:30 PM) [snapback]454982[/snapback]</div>

Yep, saw that "hidden camera" Jiffy Lube video before about six months ago (maybe longer ??) !!

I used to be (many, many years ago) a Service Manager at a small, family owned and operated Chrysler Dealership in Connecticut, owned by a "rich, old, mean man" who smiled and "talked friendly" with all his customers to their face and "screwed them royally" behind their back. I could write a book on the adventures and wrong-doings that went on there....... and they got away with it, totally............. what I hated is that I was the "in the middle of this all" and I had to keep my mouth shut or else I would NOT have a JOB............
Just one of many, many examples...... they would use Taiwan $15 a piece disc brake rotors, real junk, warped in 1,000 miles....... and they would charge the customer (over $75 each) and write-up on the bill GENUINE Chrysler rotors with Chrysler part number and list price !! They used the lowest grade of brake pads and called them "premium" and completely overcharged customers. This also went on for rebuilt axles, rebuilt power steering racks and many other rebuilt assemblies, charging the customer full price of NEW, "genuine Chrysler" items !! Made me friggin' SICK :angry: !! And when they got "audited" they ALWAYS got away with this stuff, don't ask me how ?? Maybe 'cause the "old man" (owner) was on the Town Comittee and owned about 25% of the Town !!
After about a year of this I just could not take that crap any more...... it really got to me, so I QUIT !!

 

Just like any other kind of business, there are honest auto dealers and there are crooks. The real problem is that your average consumer can't tell the difference. As the old adage goes, "if you want a job done right, then do it yourself."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FloridaWen @ Jun 4 2007, 10:52 AM) [snapback]455022[/snapback]</div>

You and jayman should try visiting a few California auto service shops sometime and inquire about the Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR). The BAR exists for the sole purpose of putting repair shops out of business that adhere to such fraudulent practices. One of their trophy bags was Sears - Sears had to sign a consent decree that shut down their entire automotive service business in California for something like 10 years, all they could do was sell and install batteries and tires, nothing else.

Oh, and I checked after I got my oil and filter changed - the Mobil1 filter is on the engine, so that got done per my request. The oil (on the dipstick) smells just like Mobil1, I got one oil bottle back with about 3 ounces remaining and the level on the dipstick is right at the full mark, so I am pretty confident that they did the service per my request.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jun 4 2007, 10:30 AM) [snapback]454982[/snapback]</div>

Good undercover video!!!!
all of those service repair techs in the video and the Dist. Mngr. should be fired on the spot!
SCUMBAGS period.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FloridaWen @ Jun 4 2007, 11:52 AM) [snapback]455022[/snapback]</div>

While giving them notice that you are leaving would have been nice to say and here is channel bla bla of the 6 pm news and they are doing a story about scamming dealers.
That would have been my move to shall we say GET EVEN with the "old MEAN guy"

 

I also did Vehicle EMISSIONS Testing at that same dealership (in Connecticut) and "the old man" (owner/boss) told me to "skip (omit) the gas cap tests and some other testing "shortcuts...... I was STATE (Connecticut) Certified and Licensed as an Emissions Tester and what most people would quickly forget is that EVERY TEST is recorded by THREE surveillance video cameras, one in back, one in front of vehicle and one on the actual testing equipment !! I continued to IGNOR the boss as I knew I could get in serious trouble......... well about three weeks after this, a registered letter comes from the State of Connecticut DMV to the owner and has EVERY incident of gas cap test omission, neglect of safety chain tie-down while on dyno, etc. documented and suspended two testers............. and fined the owner (not much, like $500 or so) but I was the ONLY "clean" one that got NO infractions............. after that the "old man" left me alone (well with the Emissions end of the job........ still ripped off customers left-and-right with the Service Dept.) :angry:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Jun 4 2007, 03:01 PM) [snapback]455072[/snapback]</div>

I believe the hidden camera investigation was done in the LA area. The problem with any government investigative department is that they are chronically understaffed, so will never uncover more than a miniscule handfule of offenders.

Much like how building codes and bylaws are routinely ignored by home builders. They know for a fact the odds of a building inspector actually uncovering shoddy work is remote at best.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Jun 4 2007, 03:01 PM) [snapback]455072[/snapback]</div>

Happy to hear your dealer appears honest. I would also be happy if you sent off a used oil analysis just before your next oil change, to help populate the Prius Used Oil Analysis Report.

Though I'm curious why you now mention you demand the use of Mobil 1 in your Prius. It never gets to -40 where you live, don't you trust your dealer oil that is bulk dispensed from the tote bin out back?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jun 7 2007, 09:34 AM) [snapback]457407[/snapback]</div>

Disputing these two comments would involve proving a negative, so I will pass. Suffice it that the BAR is in place and fraudulent shops are being put out of business.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jun 7 2007, 09:34 AM) [snapback]457407[/snapback]</div>

I have been a fan of Mobil 1 since 2000 when I started putting it in my cars. My interest in Mobil 1 stems from its superior anti-friction qualities. In the interests of squeezing miles out of a gallon of gas, every little bit helps.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Jun 7 2007, 02:30 PM) [snapback]457484[/snapback]</div>

I first started using synthetic motor oils in 1980 due to superior cold weather temperature properties. When you compare synthetic gear oils, transmission oils, and motor oils to conventional oils at -20 C, especially down to -40 C, synthetics offer clear advantages.

There is a lot of debate over "anti friction" properties of motor oils. Most API oils are designed to quickly shear down to give the impression of fuel economy improvement. In a stop and go environment, especially in winter, a synthetic 0W-20 offers clear benefits to engine protection and - at least in my case - fuel economy benefits.

In summer operation, whether I run a synthetic 5W-30, a synthetic 0W-30, or a synthetic 0W-20, I have not recorded any difference in fuel economy. This is confirmed by API testing of "energy conserving" rated motor oils at normal operating temperature - not winter operating temperature - which document a usual 1.2% "gain" in fuel economy over the "reference" oil.

The "reference" oil is a HD 15W-40.

Some motors may experience greater fuel economy gains than 1.2%. For example, a small displacement, tightly assembled motor may have an impact of 15% running a 15W-40 vs a 0W-20. In the Rest Of The World, car makers will specify a wide range of viscosities depending on ambient temperatures. This one is from Mazda for cars sold in the EU

With my new suv, the 07 Toyota FJ Cruiser, I noticed an immediate fuel economy improvement by draining the front and rear axles, and the transfer case, of the factory gear oil, and refilling with Mobil Delvac synthetic 75W-90. That factory gear oil was pretty nasty stuff, at 1,000 km the rear axle oil came out black already. My highway fuel economy went from 20 to 23 just by doing that. It currently is getting 26 if I baby it.

 

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there is a Mobil 1 replacement for the iCVT transmission oil?

 

Nope, only Toyota type WS.

Wayne

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Jun 7 2007, 11:41 PM) [snapback]457820[/snapback]</div>

Remember that with the CVT, not only do you have to match the lubricant properties of WS fluid, but also the dielectric properties. Note: the windings are not actually immersed in oil, but electrical properties are still importantThese photos of MG 1 and MG 2 are good cutaways

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jun 10 2007, 07:54 PM) [snapback]459431[/snapback]</div>

Based on the cut-away image, it seems that the cvt transmission is isolated from the regenerative braking part of the HSD unit. I could be mistaken, but that is what I see in the image. There seems to be a very limited production of transmission oil for cvts. (MINI is the only source for transmission fluid for the cvt in the non-super/turbo-charged MINI; Toyota is likewise for the Toyota cvt.) I suspect each manufacturer that offers a cvt option sources the transmission fluid from one supplier.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Jun 11 2007, 01:38 PM) [snapback]459592[/snapback]</div>

Note that Toyota doesn't actually have a specific "cvt" oil. Their recommendation for the +2004 models is Toyota WS fluid, which is the same fluid called for in the 5 speed auto of my FJ. Toyota probably requires WS fluid in all their auto transmissions.

Some manufacturers require a special cvt fluid due to the "snowmobile" transmission they use as a cvt. A special friction modifier is needed to ensure proper operation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Norman H. Renehan @ Jun 13 2007, 01:11 AM) [snapback]460675[/snapback]</div>

I really get frustrated when I hear of dealers handing out "advice" like that. First of all, if those rings aren't seated by 1,000 miles, they probably never will seat.

The motor in the Prius isn't like a HD truck diesel motor, that needs operation at maximum GCW to seat the rings. Virtually every modern motor in passenger cars should be good to go after 1,000 miles, and I do believe the owner manual also mentions that. It certainly does for my new FJ Cruiser.

The Prius in the EU has a normal 12 month or 10,000 mile oil change interval. I did post a used oil analysis on my FJ motor, which is a 4.0 litre V6, and it does appear "hard" on oil. So I took the dealer up on their early complimentary oil change at 2,000 km.

Once I reach 3,000 km, which should be after this weekend, I'm going to change the oil myself and use Mobil 1 0W-40, which is Mobil's highest rated motor oil, meeting the ACEA A3, B4-02 specification.

If I purchase a new Prius this fall like I intend to, I will run the oil the full 8,000km before changing. The Prius motor is very easy on oil, especially a good synthetic, and with the exception of odd results from my crap dealer oil, I had very good used oil analysis results.

As far as odd dealer stories, there is a dealership here in Winnipeg - not the one I deal with of course - that recommends a 3,500 km oil change interval. They also "recommend" using only a semi-synthetic from 10,000 - 40,000 km, and a full synthetic past 40,000 km

With a 3,500 km interval