When two gunmen smashed through the front glass door...

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by mingoglia, Sep 23, 2008.

  1. mingoglia

    mingoglia Member

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    I for one am very much pro-gun. Admittedly my firearms are inaccessible if the below situation were to happen to me. I have my shotgun completely disassembled with the ammunition locked away until I purchase a safe it will fit in. I have done this because I have a 5 year old and 3 year old. Many on this forum are against weapons; I'm curious your thoughts on the following. I'm hoping this thread in itself doesn't turn into a battle as I'm just interested in understanding the alternate viewpoints.

    BLUE MOUND, Texas — When two gunmen smashed through the glass front door of her suburban Fort Worth home, Kellie Hoehn didn't think twice.

    The 34-year-old mother of two grabbed a shotgun that had been pointed at her face early Wednesday, starting a struggle that ended with one intruder killed with his own weapon and another in the hospital.

    "I wasn't going to let them get to my babies," she said, recalling the moment when she pushed up the muzzle of the shotgun, pointing it away from her children's rooms.

    Although the intruders told her to keep quiet, she screamed for her husband. She told her 12-year-old son, who was awakened by the sound of the shattering glass front door, to get his 5-year-old sister and hide.

    "It was like a horror movie," her husband, 32-year-old Keith Hoehn, told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. "I thought I was a dead man. We're fighting for our lives."

    With Kellie Hoehn clinging to the weapon's muzzle, her husband tackled the man who held the shotgun. She knocked the intruder in the head with a jar candle, giving her husband a chance to wrest the shotgun.

    By then the tussle had spilled out onto the front lawn. Keith Hoehn shot one of the men who had a pistol, police said. Wounded, that man ran away.

    Then the intruder who initially had the shotgun charged Keith Hoehn.

    Kellie Hoehn told The Dallas Morning News that she screamed at her husband, "Shoot him, shoot him, shoot him."

    Her husband fired the shotgun and the man fell to the ground. Then the shot man lunged a second time.

    "Well, I shot him again, and I guess that was it," Keith Hoehn said.

    Dakota Scott Benoit, 20, of Richland Hills, was pronounced dead at a hospital. John Garland Pierson, 25, of Haltom City, was in critical condition and in police custody at the hospital.

    "I am not happy that someone is dead," Kellie Hoehn said. "But I am glad that my family is alive."

    Police said Pierson was shot in the left arm and the bullet pierced his diaphragm and other organs but his condition was improving. He will face charges of burglary of habitation with intent to commit another felony, police said.

    Investigators say the couple were just defending their family and probably won't be charged.

    Suburban couple subdue gun-toting intruders - CNN.com
     
  2. eagle33199

    eagle33199 Platinum Member

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    Definitely a good ending to the story. On to the issue of gun control...

    This is another field, like many that have been politicized, where you're painted in one extreme or another. I don't think too many people on the boards here are actually against guns - they simply favor better, tighter gun control. It's a fairly common belief that better control, banning automatics and semi-automatics will make things safer. It still allows avid hunters access to their shot guns and rifles, and your average person access to relatively simple handguns that, in cases where they're actually accessible (read: not in a different room, locked in a safe you won't have time to open :p), could help prevent home invasions like that in the OP.


    I guess it really comes down to what your intentions are with owning a gun. Hunting and home protection shouldn't really require all that much, and it shouldn't matter if you have to wait a few extra days or weeks to obtain your gun - at least in theory. If you're going by the constitution and bearing arms for the purposes of serving as a one-man militia should the need arise, your desires are going to be vastly different than the average hunter/home owner - and really, given how much the US spends on its military, i doubt a militia is really necessary anymore. And if you're bearing arms with the intent of fighting against the government should it grow out of control of the people, then I'm sorry to say you're going to be horribly out gunned.

    So, while there are individuals who are completely and totally opposed to guns in all forms, i think they're in the minority. Rather, people tend to take sides on where the line should be drawn on gun accessibility, not if they should be accessible.
     
  3. freshmtt

    freshmtt Dachshund Addict

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    Good for them!!!! I think what the family did was acceptable. I have no sympathy or pity for the dead man or the other idiot that was wounded. You break into someone's home and commit a crime you take the chance of being shot and killed. If more situations like this happened I think we would have a lot less crime if the stupid nice person criminals would know that they are not the only ones capable of pulling that trigger.
     
  4. Devil's Advocate

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    God I love Texas!
     
  5. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    To me it proves a number of things.

    1. You have to be pretty stupid to try a home invasion style robbery. Why take a risk at winding up like these clowns, when there are plenty of safer targets?

    2. Despite being one of the main concerns of many gun owners, home invasion robberies are pretty rare because most potential thieves aren't that stupid.

    3. As you mention, in the vast majority of cases, even if you own guns they will be of no use to you because they are stored away in a safe manner

    4. If you keep your guns readily at hand and loaded for just such a situation, the chances of your kids finding them and killing themselves or their friends are much higher than your actually needing them for defense.

    5. Having a gun gives you a false sense of security. These guys had the guns and had the element of surprise on their side, and look how well things turned out for them.

    6. If any moron couldn't just walk into a pawn shop and buy a shotgun or handgun for $50, these types of situations would probably be even less common.

    I enjoy guns a good deal, but have no interest in having them in my home with two small children. Nor do I feel that my desire to have access to them justifies the amount of harm done by their being readily available. There will always be people who are going to commit crimes. But there are few people who would be bold enough to try and force their way into someones home without a gun. The very palpable power that emanates from holding a firearm, the ease of its discharge, and the immediacy of it effects, give people the courage to do things they would never otherwise undertake.

    Rob
     
  6. NoMoShocks

    NoMoShocks Electrical Engineer

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    What the story tells me is that Jar Candles are every bit if not more important means for protecting yourself.
     
  7. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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    Clearly unless these poor folks had actually had their weapons on them at the time any weapons in the house would have been useless. They were very brave to fight fight back and I'm glad that they escaped with no physical harm. Psychological damage will be extreme and I feel really sorry for them.

    I own a number of weapons including an AR-15, a 12 gauge, and a 30-06. We had some dumbass kids kick in our front door at about 11 PM one night about a year ago. Scared the living shite out of us. After the first kick I was up out of bed and racing down stairs, completely unarmed, and thinking "sod this, I wish I had my AR". The kids just ran off and were later apprehended by the cops (they'd already done this to a couple of other houses).

    Once I settled down I thought about how it might have ended if I had been armed with a loaded assault rifle. I'm not sure where it would have gone, but the thought that the rounds fired from that weapon would have passed through many bodies/walls/doors before coming to a halt would have made me somewhat reluctant to fire it. The loaded 12 gauge would have been a MUCH better option in that situation, but still it was unloaded under the bed. I've got two young daughters and I don't want ammunition anywhere near those weapons. So down the stairs in me boxers it was. I found it hard to get to sleep for a couple of weeks. You really real violated and edgy. I can't imagine what those folks will go through in the months and years ahead.

    I'm guessing the lads who tried the robbery were meth-heads. Who else would be so f*cking stupid? The tossers got what they deserved. It's just too bad that the family that they attacked will carry psychological scars for years to come.
     
  8. Dave_PH

    Dave_PH New Member

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    I keep my gun loaded and handy. I load 2 clips with fresh hydorschocks every year.
     
  9. Dave_PH

    Dave_PH New Member

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    Feel free to show me the data on this
     
  10. Dave_PH

    Dave_PH New Member

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  11. mingoglia

    mingoglia Member

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    My hand gun, a Glock G21 .45 is relatively accessible. It's locked up in my closet. One day I'll get a safe that can be unlocked by touch and have it bolted somewhere even more accessible. I keep a very low weight, high fragmenting, hollow point rounds in my 3 mags. I keep this type of ammunition in the gun because it's more likely to not kill my neighbors if it were to go through a wall... unlike a full metal jacket. I'd much rather have my shotgun in this situation because it's "safer" still... by safer I mean less likely to travel through walls. I've also gone through numerous tacticle and hand to hand definsive classes and trained on a simulator in shoot/don't shoot situations. I've actually gone through the same classes, at the same school as many of my local law enforcement officers.

    With regards to item 6, I don't believe this. I highly doubt the average criminal neanders through his local Walmart and plunks down $187 on a 870 pump before going on a aggragated robbery spree. :eek: If we went back 200 years ago and made sure that this country did not allow weapons then we'd have a better chance at this. The reality is, guns are here... and if we "get rid" of them only criminals will have them. What happened during the prohibition of alcohol?
     
  12. Dave_PH

    Dave_PH New Member

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    Mine isn't locked, it's easily accessible between our living room and front door. There's a hollowpoint in the chamber and 15 more in the clip.

    A few months ago there was a series of home invasions just south of here in St Pete. One night a homeowner heard a noise from someone trying to break in through his garage door. He fired through the door. Two robbers took their friend to the hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival. The two were arrested. The homeowner was not charged. Too bad criminals.
     
  13. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    Admittedly pure speculation on my part. Reliable numbers are very hard to find, particularly as "home invasion" is not typically tracked as a separate crime stat in most areas. What is clear to me is that this phenomenon is highly blown out of proportion in the media because of the very understandable fear it creates. There are lots of self defense oriented websites out there that grab a couple of these sensational headlines and then show statistics of the hundreds of thousands of home invasions and residential robberies that occur. Of course they neglect to mention that the later constitutes the vast majority. Here's a good example of this sort of fear-mongering:
    BumpKeyWarning.com - Home Invasion Statistics

    Here's a site that attempts to track all home invasions in MN based on law enforcement and media reports. Based on the nature of this site they clearly seem to be of the opinion that this is a big problem, and if anything I would say they over estimate with a broad interpretation of the "home invasion" definition and some double reporting. A survey of their data finds the following:
    MN Home Invasion Watch

    For 2007-2008 in MN:
    Total Home Invasions: 110
    Intruders Killed by Owners: 4
    Owners Killed by Intruders: 5
    Owners Killed with Own Gun: 2

    So a total of 5 home owners were killed in the two year period during home invasion robberies. Of those 2 were killed with their own weapon, and one more appears to have actually been an intentional murder, not a true random home invasion. As 4 killed their attackers (of which one was not with a fire arm), and one man successfully defended his home w/o killing the invaders (despite not too brightly chasing them into the street and continuing to fire at them as they drove away) I'd say the armed homeowners were about 67% effective in their defense. (4 succeeded, 2 died as a result). Based on the fact that those who did not introduce a firearm into the situation survived at a rate of 95% I would say those folks had better results. This is not in any way to trivialize those who were injured, raped, or traumatized by the remaining occurrences, just trying to get down to the bottom line.

    According to the CDC, based on the most recent 5 years data available there are an average of 5.6 deaths per year in MN caused by accidental firearm discharge. So for the same time period, we could estimate that about 11 people died in firearms accidents.
    Injury Mortality Reports

    Given this sample, I don't think I'm unjustified in thinking that more people are accidentally killed by guns than die in home invasion style robberies. In this case they were more than 2:1. Further more those who introduced a firearm into the situation were 7 time more likely to end up dead.

    Rob
     
  14. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    I don't necessarily disagree. I guess I'm just more of an idealist. If we never make an attempt to address the issue, it will never improve. I cannot see our currently escalating personal arms race leading to any positive outcome.

    I'm not really here to argue the issue, as I doubt there is any real chance of anyone convincing the other side of anything. The OP said he was curious about the thought processes of those with differing views, so I obliged.

    Rob
     
  15. mingoglia

    mingoglia Member

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    I understand your apprehension about discussing this. I too am not looking to get into a heated debate regarding this. My intent of the thread was to discuss both sides in a friendly manner in hopes that everyone keeps their cool and remains friends. :) I'm mainly looking for other peoples views in an attempt to understand where they're coming from on this issue. Yea, it's highly unlikely that I'll change my position... but I'm still curious to hear everyone's take.

    With that being said... my own analogy has always been to compare the removal of guns from our country with the prohibition of alcohol. Things started out good for a very very brief time... then not only did alcohol use sharply climb, but then you had the organized crime element start to take shape. Still considering my analogy for this discussion, if alcohol never existed in this country then no one would have known what they were missing... and there fore the demand wouldn't have sparked the interest of organized crime and those running moonshine operations.

    Mike
     
  16. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    Thanks, I appreciate that. Your example is a pretty good one, an outright ban is unlikely to ever work as it simply foments resistance. From my cold, dead hands etc. However, I believe there is a good deal of grey area between unrestricted access and a total ban. In my opinion the current application of the second amendment is skewed way too far towards protecting the right of someone to buy any gun they want at any time at a moments notice, as opposed to protecting the interest and safety of the general public.

    Rob
     
  17. Dave_PH

    Dave_PH New Member

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    I didn't see the stats anywhere on that page
    MN Home Invasion Watch

    For 2007-2008 in MN:
    Total Home Invasions: 110
    Intruders Killed by Owners: 4
    Owners Killed by Intruders: 5
    Owners Killed with Own Gun: 2

    And THAT page is the closest you could come to stats.

    In fact, it looks like Owners Killed by Intruders would have been 9 if not for the armed homeowners
     
  18. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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    The concept of a ban probably won't work for the reasons stated above. The concept of limiting the availablilty of certain types of weapons, is, I think, a bit of a waste of time as well. Look at the weapons that the assailants in this example carried... a shotgun and a pistol (presumably an automatic of some kind, probably not a revolver). Hardly exotic. It seems to me that most of the energy spent (correct me if I'm off base here) has been on assault rifles and the like. Taking the bayonet lug off of assault rifles has not prevented the loss of a single life, it's just sort of a silly incremental attack on assault rifles. I freely admit that an AR doesn't really have any practical value. A dreadful home security weapon, not really good for hunting either. I have one because it allowed me to practice my marksmanship (I was in the service for 6+ years) with a weapon very similar to the type I'd be required to qualify with. Target shooting is loads of fun too... but I digress. The point is, very few crimes are committed with assault rifles. Shot guns and pistols are the bread and butter of crime, however, there are so many already out there that it's really impossible to control. We don't need to give organized crime another way to make a buck.

    I'm not really sure what the solution is. Better parenting and a higher standard of living for everybody would be a good start.
     
  19. Dave_PH

    Dave_PH New Member

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    Firearms are involved in 0.6% of accidental deaths nationally. Most accidental deaths involve, or are due to, motor vehicles (39%), poisoning (18%), falls (16%), suffocation (5%), drowning (2.9%), fires (2.8%), medical mistakes (2.2%), environmental factors (1.2%), and bicycles and tricycles (0.7%). Among children: motor vehicles (45%), suffocation (18%), drowning (14%), fires (9%), bicycles and tricycles (2.4%), falls (2%), poisoning (1.6%),environmental factors (1.5%), and medical mistakes (0.8%).
     
  20. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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    uh, where did you draw that conclusion from? Not the data. Reading the top article... what a way to live. In constant fear of everything. That bloke will be dead of stress and anxiety, but his corpse will be safe inside his little fortress. A bit over the top to say the least.
     
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