When you buy an EV it comes with a charging network

Discussion in 'Tesla' started by bwilson4web, Aug 13, 2019 at 7:58 AM.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    This morning I was doing some preliminary trip planning for a grand tour to visit distant relatives in our Tesla Model 3:
    [​IMG]
    The top chart shows the CCS-CHAdeMO chargers for EVgo and Electrify America. The bottom chart shows the Tesla SuperCharger network. Primary routes are to Coffeyville KS, above Tulsa, and Stillwater OK, west of Tulsa. The SuperCharger network has a gap between Little Rock and Tulsa at Fort Smith AR on the Oklahoma border. However, there is one CHAdeMO charger West of Little Rock that in an hour could bridge the gap.

    [​IMG]
    The next destination is my friend in Dallas Tx and then to my brothers in Tempe and Tucson AR. Either network works but reaching Los Angles is more direct with the SuperCharger.

    [​IMG]
    Reaching relatives in Oregon and Washington is easy for either but headed East to visit friend in Madison WI and relatives in Connecticut and Maine faces a CCS/CHAdeMO gap.

    [​IMG]
    Getting further East, only SuperCharger has a route across the Northern Midwest. CCS/CHAdeMO requires a Southern route.

    [​IMG]
    Headed home, the SuperChargers provide many alternative paths to avoid weather or traffic delays. The CCS/CHAdeMO is not as flexible.

    In another year or two, CCS/CHAdeMO may eliminate their multiple gaps to catch up to the SuperCharger network. The SuperCharger network has only one significant gap, Little Rock to Tulsa, that the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter or the longer range Teslas with 300 mile range could bridge.

    In 2019, only a Tesla would be able to make this Grand Tour in reasonable time. Other EVs would face significant detours and delays. Worse, their charging costs are 2-3x more expensive than the SuperCharger. In effect, their higher charging rates achieve parity with gas cars.

    My point is that if you look at EV range alone, you can be disappointed. Not so much with Tesla because the SuperCharger network and CHAdeMO adapter makes a better charger mesh. The CCS/CHAdeMO remains a work in progress that only the diesel fiasco made possible. No other EV maker has committed to making sure a CCS/CHAdeMO network will be available for their future EVs.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    and therein lies the bev conundrum. tesla cannot supply the entire needs of a nation converting to bev's
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    Tesla only has to supply a SuperCharger network for the cars they sell. In contrast, GM has said 'h*ll no' and VW is just paying a fine. Tesla providing a CHAdeMO adapter is a 'shot across the bow.'

    Nissan offers the only CHAdeMO equipped BEV in the USA. The Outlander is PHEV and doesn't really need their CHAdeMO socket. Now Tesla can 'parasite' on CHAdeMO but no one else can touch the SuperCharger. The disconnect between the independent CCS-1/CHAdeMO vendors and potential EV sellers ensures there will be gaps.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #3 bwilson4web, Aug 13, 2019 at 8:55 AM
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019 at 9:42 AM
  4. ice9

    ice9 Member

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    When you no-longer need a map to find the next available station, then I would consider it a success. Eventually, they'll make it though.
     
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  5. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    +1

    I took a few long trips this summer in my PHEV's that took zero planning or worry about fuel; plugged in when I reached destinations if available (and free) but no worries if I didn't or couldn't. Another benefit, one trip was to a popular but remote tourist destination so gas prices were much higher there but with 500+ miles of range, I was able to skip refueling there and wait till I had better options in more populated areas.

    Currently, superchargers + adapters for other networks is the best bet but unfortunately pricing on both networks mean travel costs sometimes aren't really that much better than gas for a Prius but that can vary greatly. IOW, on the road charging is not slam-dunk better/cheaper than it usually is when charging at home.

    Things will change but it's an EVolution not a REVolution.
     
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  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Nissan is a major stake holder in the corporation that holds the CHAdeMO license. Mitsubishi might be too.
    Hyundai is using the format that they see as the major one for the specific market. Asian Ioniq Electrics have CHAdeMo. American get CCS.

    But how many drivers use road charging as their main source?
    Paying the same, or a little more, for 10% of your miles is okay while paying less for the 90%.
     
  7. t_newt

    t_newt Member

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    It is not just the number and location of chargers, it is the cost.
    Electrek had an article about the various fast charging networks and how much they cost:
    30 states allow kWh pricing, but non-Tesla EV drivers mostly miss benefits - Electrek

    Summary: the Tesla Superchargers are a good deal. The others are often outrageously expensive--much more than the cost of gasoline.
     
  8. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    I love EV's, I have one. But that type of trip just rent a gas car. That's what they do best. High energy density and an ubiquitous "recharging" grid. And then you aren't putting as much wear on your battery/tires/etc. A rental car you don't pay for the maintenance for the tires and oil change and if something goes wrong or you want something else, it's free.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    Like many things, it depends. With $2.50/gal gas, I've added the MPGe equivalent based on cost and miles. But as a general rule of thumb I'm finding: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/3894916/
    • SuperCharger rates - 98.4 mi (+150 ft,) $4.50, 18 min, 55 MPGe
    • Electrify America rates (CHAdeMO) - 116 mi (-100 ft,) $9.96, 38:39 min., 29 MPGe
    • EVgo rates (CHAdeMO) - 98.9 mi, $15.75, 45:30 min., 15.7 MPGe
    With CHAdeMO, both Electrify America and EVgo are slow, <50 kW, and expensive. If I have to bridge a SuperCharger gap like ~70 miles needed between Little Rock AR and Tulsa, they make sense. But for a cross country trip, no.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #9 bwilson4web, Aug 13, 2019 at 1:52 PM
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019 at 2:04 PM
  10. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    Also something to keep in mind if people question your time spent charging, there is a trend in the US for slower refueling times. Almost all the new petrol pumps have big screens on them and speakers and play advertisements as you fill up. Obviously the more screen time, the better the engagement from an advertising point of view. Couple this with lots of vapour recovery devices on gas pump handles and the excuses for having to pump the gas slower to prevent shutoff start coming off. In reality they are pumping slower so you look at the ads longer. Some stations have started taking this to extremes, and I have no doubt more will in the future.

    There is at least one station where I first of heard this locally, where a fillup for a 14-gallon tank from E to F (typical if not small SUV) took 12 minutes of pumping. In our state we can still flip the latch so we don't have to stand there the whole time, but that's going away in lots of places too. Since most of my driving is a BEV that charges at home or a Prius that I fill up occasionally, it is not something I routinely notice. On my last trip in a rental I got a little Lincoln MKC SUV. The station I stopped at to refuel had just installed the giant screen pumps, and sure enough the fill rate was lower. I fill up there probably 2 times a month, they installed them while I was out of town.

    I put 14 gallons into the 16gallon tank before returning the rental car. It took me 12 minutes to fill up 14 gallons. Now this could be because the in-ground tank was low, or because the in-ground filters were dirty, or whatever. But this was abnormally slow on a normal day in a station I frequent often. I say this was because of ads. That means it took me 12 minutes to get 294miles of range. In a new SuperCharger I'd get 200mi of range in the same filling time and I wouldn't have stinky gas hands and I could sit in the car, or walk around.

    Everybody talks about EV charging needing to be faster. Few people are talking about gas filling becoming slower...
     
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  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Considering the amount of miles that are done on home charging, the BEV likely comes out ahead in terms of fuel cost for the year for many, even with higher trip fuel prices.
     
  12. ice9

    ice9 Member

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    I'll agree with that. I noticed that a number of EV members here seem to be a little upset about the rate of progress with infrastructure and batteries. I blame part of that on overly optimistic projections. One person was even citing Moore's Law as applicable to the emerging battery technology. But just because photolith is used in IC technology doesn't mean it endows the same manufacturing benefits to other products. It usually doesn't. Behind the scenes, capitalism is slow and new technology is difficult. As you say, it evolves. Most of the work happens away from public view, and only when it's proven can it take off... ...IF the customer likes it.
     
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    Other than the SuperCharger gap between Little Rock AR and Tesla OK, I'm fairly happy. Now that I have access to a CHAdeMO adapter, even that gap has gotten smaller. I've also found and tested different, L2 chargers to bridge the gap and a detour via Springfield MO

    Bob Wilson.
     
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  14. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    When the main point of using such stations is to avoid the waiting lines at the low-price leaders such as Costco/Walmart/Sam'sClub/Safeway/Kroger, these stations will need to be careful about cutting off one of their primary remaining advantages.
     
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  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Not if the low priced stations start installing TVs.
     
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  16. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    With their lower margins and already long waiting lines, they cannot afford to slow down their customer thru-put by adding delays.

    That is, unless the advertising actually starts producing more revenue than the fuel sale itself, which seems unlikely given customer's propensity to ignore the ads as much as practical. The ad industry tracks results as best it can, and low-producing methods can't continue to draw much revenue.

    Only stations with no waiting lines and many stalls standing empty much of the time, can afford to add these advertising delays.
     
  17. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    Fuel is generally sold for very little profit to the final station owner, usually less than 3 cents a gallon. They rely on you buying the high margin items like windshield washer fluid and motor oil. Then car washes if they have them. And back in the day, it was the mechanic bay that made the money. Sometimes gas is even sold at a loss, to get you to come to the store.

    Costco for example does have cheaper fuel, but it too sells it at a minimal to no profit area. The strategy is once you are there, you might as well pickup something inside. Or those people who buy a membership just to buy fuel. It's like free money to them.
     
  18. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    But adding fuel pumping delays to show more advertising won't help them. Instead, it will cause longer waiting lines that drive more customers away, only hurting their add-on business.

    That is why I feel that any move to slower fueling will be limited to low volume stations with usually-empty stalls, not high volume stations with waiting lines.
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    So where are the free, Costco, fast DC chargers? Say a Tesla Urban charger?

    Bob Wilson
     
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