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Who Killed the Electric Car -- Washington Post Review

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by chogan, Jul 24, 2006.

  1. chogan

    chogan New Member

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    The 7/21/06 Washinton Post had a really snarky review of "Who Killed the Electric Car", accessible at this URL:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6072001744.html

    The review falls into the category that I would call right-wing political correctness.

    I read the review, went to see the movie Saturday, stewed about it Sunday, and sent this letter to the Washington Post today. I'm not the sort of person who writes letters to the editor, and I don't think the Post will publish it, so I'd like to put it here for those who'd care to read it.

    Before I do, I'd like to say that I'm not darelldd's acolyte, I just happen to think he's basically right about what he says about electric cars. Also, I'm not looking for a discussion, I just want to get this off my chest. Here goes:



    Despite reading your review of "Who Killed the Electric Car" (7/21/06), I decided to see the movie.

    Seeing the movie and reading the review, I'd have to say that the key phrases in the review are: "I commute 74 miles a day" and "those of us stuck in gas guzzlers". So, the Post assigned a guy who's so proud of driving 74 miles a day in a gas guzzler that he puts it in the paper … to review a movie about an electric car?

    The results were predictable, but it’s really a shame. Between the sneering tone of the review, the errors of fact, and the errors of omission, you've probably discouraged some people from seeing this movie who might have benefited from it. If that's the purpose of your movie reviews, then bravo, well done.

    Here's a number from the movie that people might have wanted to hear: 60 cents a gallon for gas. That's the equivalent of the cost of the electricity used to run an electric vehicle (EV). Half the CO2 emissions. That's how much better an EV does than a comparable gas car. I've checked both of these against several sources and they appear roughly correct. But your reviewer for some reason decided to characterize that CO2 reduction as "you still have to consume a hell of a lot of fossil fuel, in the form of big, messy chunks of carbon called coal, or natural gas". I think the correct statement would have been "a hell of a lot less of fossil fuel, …" At least the part about coal containing carbon was right, for those readers who didn't know that.

    I found some parts of the review absolutely unfathomable. The entire point of the movie is that GM didn't just stop making the EV-1, GM literally rounded them all up and destroyed these completely functional cars. By itself, that's pretty interesting. But your reviewer describes the cars as "mysteriously disappearing". No mystery there. GM called them in off lease and scrapped them. Nobody disputes that. The only mystery is why GM and others did it, not what happened to them.

    The reason this dreadful review hit home is that I bought a Prius last year. I guess that makes me biased. Or maybe just smart. (As opposed to the reviewer, who is biased but merely smart-mouthed.) The same sort of condescending nonsense that your reviewer wrote about EVs has been written about the Prius, always by people who can't be bothered to get the facts straight, pretend that they understand how markets work, and throw out a lot of scare talk instead of doing a little arithmetic

    But these days I guess it's all about style, not substance. So when your reviewer combined scintillating humor ("Sparky the Wonder Car") with misinformation (60 miles between charges), I guess I wasn’t supposed to notice the error of fact. As stated in the movie, the EV-1's that GM destroyed went about 120 miles between charges. The Toyota RAV4 EV goes about 150. Presumably the range of a modern EV would be modestly higher due to improvements in battery technology. Even if your reviewer couldn't bother to pay attention to the movie, he might have considered spending 60 seconds to look it up on Wikipedia (where the absolute maximum range for the EV-1 is listed as 150 miles).

    My point here is that sneering at electric cars is just so 20th century. It helps America to be a little bit stupider, and thereby helps the Japanese beat us to EVs the way they beat us to the Prius. That’s not the sort of thinking that made America great and put a man on the moon, it’s the sort of thinking that keeps us embroiled in Middle Eastern wars.

    Instead, I think people ought to be encouraged to see this movie to broaden their minds a bit. Look at these good-looking cars driving around, maybe do a little arithmetic about how much you'd save using the equivalent of 60-cent-a-gallon gas, and think about how often you need to drive more than (say) 150 miles in a day. With essentially zero maintenance. All completely feasible, right now. Using domestic fuel, not Middle Eastern oil. And then realize that you can't buy one. Period. None. Tough luck.

    Well, that's an exaggeration. A few hundred RAV4 EVs were sold outright, not leased. A RAV4 EV with 33,000 miles on it sold on Ebay 7/9/06 for $55,000. Pretty good price for a "nerdy-looking battery-operated near-car", in your reviewer's terms. Was the buyer foolish, or is your reviewer biased? Or maybe the high market price for a used EV is telling us something useful. But I guess your reviewer was too busy to Google "RAV4 EV" and read the results.

    I'd like to think that one of the major car companies will offer an EV soon, but you just can’t tell. It's certainly a risk. Batteries are expensive. And car dealers will hate EVs -- surveys show that roughly half their profits are from service and parts, which EVs largely will not need. But battery technology continues to improve, and the consumer economics are becoming pretty compelling. As a Ph.D. economist, I have to believe that sooner or later the markets are going to exploit that opportunity. No car fits all needs. But people like me are going to buy EVs, not because it's better for the environment (which it is), or because it has become completely technically feasible (which it has), or because it largely uses domestic fuel (instead of Middle Eastern oil), but because it's an extremely cheap way to drive around.

    Do the math. I bought a Prius because it cost about the same as the alternatives (Camry, Taurus) to purchase, but will burn about $12,000 less gasoline over the ten years I expect to drive the car (10K city miles per year, $3/gallon.) The same arithmetic says the fuel and maintenance savings for a hypothetical all-electric Prius would amount to roughly $18,000, over ten years, compared to a Taurus or Camry. That's a pretty big bargain.

    So, use your brains a little. Right now, my Prius has a hundred-pound battery and two electric motors, and they work flawlessly. Oh, and a gas engine, and that runs pretty well too. That whole package makes the car very cheap, in the long run. Sooner rather than later, it's going to be a no-brainer to toss the engine, add more battery, and watch the resulting car sell. Because it'll do most of what people want a car for, but will be even cheaper. It's no longer a huge step. I just wish an American company would have the brains and the guts to do it, instead of the Japanese. Maybe Americans won’t buy electric cars despite a low cost of operation. But its pretty damn certain they won't if they never get to hear about it. In keeping people away from this movie, you've done your part to keep America stupider.

    Sincerely,
     
  2. Marlin

    Marlin New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Jul 24 2006, 09:42 AM) [snapback]291377[/snapback]</div>
    I would say that there's no mystery to why GM scrapped the EV1s instead of allowing the people who had leased them to buy them. And no, I don't think they had sinister reasons for doing it.

    I would be willing to bet that Federal regulations require auto makers to provide some level of repair and availablitity of parts for automobiles that they sell. We all certainly know that there are laws requiring them to perform safety recalls when demanded by the Federal Government.

    So, for a few hundred EV1s out in consumers hands, GM would have to train service technicians, maintain an inventory of spare parts, and respond to safety recalls. This would undoubtably cost far more than they could ever recover from the sale price of these EV1s, especially if you consider the fact that the sale price probably wouldn't even cover the cost of design and manufacture of the cars.

    So, since GM still owned all the EV1s, and since they were abandoning the product and the technology (at least in the near term), the only financially sensible thing to do was to recall the cars and scrap them.
     
  3. sl7vk

    sl7vk Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Jul 24 2006, 10:15 AM) [snapback]291384[/snapback]</div>
    I think that's a weak excuse. They should have offered the cars for sale for what they needed to make it viable. If that number is 40k, then offer 40k to the consumer and see what happens. Or make them sign a waiver of service and sell them the cars for a marked down rate. What they did was just plain wastefull.

    I've heard that GM now laments its decision to scrap the Electric Car. Perhaps their sliding market share, massive deficits, and no longer being the worlds largest auto maker will be a wakeup call..... Perhaps.
     
  4. wstander

    wstander New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sl7vk @ Jul 24 2006, 07:35 AM) [snapback]291390[/snapback]</div>
    Not quite dead yet:

    Market share in U.S. sales

    General Motors
    1985: 41 percent
    2005: 26 percent
    Toyota
    1985: 6 percent
    2005: 13 percent
    Source: WardsAuto.com

    We will see what the numbers say next year (about CY2006)

    On the other note; I guess no auto company ever got sued over product defects, and we all know how much signed waivers are worth when it comes to taking a large corporation to court.

    If all the facts were laid out and sworn to in an International Court, someone would still call 'conspiracy' either way...
     
  5. chogan

    chogan New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Jul 24 2006, 10:15 AM) [snapback]291384[/snapback]</div>
    I'm no particular believer or disbeliever in conspiracy theories. There may be something in what you say here. I wouldn't know about a Federal law requiring a minimum level of aftermarket support (other than having to honor the warrantee like any other car.) Found nothing to support that with a quick search, but wouldn't even know where to look in the US code to find it.

    On the one hand, GM had a revenue stream of about maybe $5M/year from the leased fleet (800 cars * $500 month * 12 months). In two states, where their mechanics already knew about them. They had another bunch of vehicles that were not out to lease (I'm thinking parts here). Maybe it was a marginal money-loser at that point, maybe not. I'm sure if you loaded enough overhead onto it, your accountants could make it appear a money-loser. But I could also believe that if you treated the costs up to that point as sunk, it might have paid its own way from that point forward.

    My understanding of how Toyota solved this for the RAV4 EVs that it sold is that service is available where they sold them, but not nationwide. I think the last guy selling one on Ebay said that. So if you brought one to the East Coast, you couldn't expect Toyota to fix it. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

    I vaguely recall GM's initial rationale was that it was dangerous to leave the vehicles on the road due to the potential for fires as the battery packs aged. That's as good as any other reason they stated.

    Anyway, that really wasn't the main thrust of my statement. Really, it was that the review said the cars disappeared mysteriously, which was incorrect. They were scrapped even though they still ran OK. It's plausible that GM did that based on a pure dollars-and-sense viewpoint. Maybe my viewpoint is colored by the fact that the first car I ever owned was a Chevrolet Vega (aluminum engine, total failure), but I could also believe GM may have done it for essentially non-economic reasons. Certainly at that point, the underlying profits or losses would have been trivial to GM, unless the aging-battery-pack scenario was real, in which case I could see that the threat of lawsuit might have been enough to get the cars off the road.
     
  6. nwprius

    nwprius Member

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    Chogan,

    Very well written. Thank you. So very often these people do not receivew a response.

    Another thing seldom brought up is the fact that Electric Cars would put >Service Stations< out of business. Thus the need to further the attempt with 'Fuel Cells' which will need the Service Stations.
     
  7. Marlin

    Marlin New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sl7vk @ Jul 24 2006, 10:35 AM) [snapback]291390[/snapback]</div>
    I found an EV world article that came to the same conclusion I did. They even threw in liability and lawsuits into the mix. But I think that just considering the service and repair liability is enough to show how impratical it would be.

    EV1 : Victim of Liability Laws?
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("EV World")</div>
    An earlier part of the article related a conversation with an anonymous GM employee that pointed out that unlike GM's S-10 electric pickup and the electric Ford Ranger, where were based on existing vehicles, the EV1 was a specially built vehicle and therefore couldn't be supported using off the self parts from it's non-electric equivalent vehicle.

    As for price, it seems there were 600 EV1 in service when they canceled and crushed things. Let's say they did sell them all for $40K. That's a whopping $60 million, which does seem like a lot, but when spread over 10 years, $6 million is year is not very much at all.

    Even at $100K per vehicle, you still aren't talking about a hugh amount of money per year, certainly not when you consider what the money would have to pay for. And, at $100K per vehicle, there would likely be few buyers.
     
  8. sl7vk

    sl7vk Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wstander @ Jul 24 2006, 10:52 AM) [snapback]291392[/snapback]</div>
    Those numbers seem awefully.... well wrong....

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10543912/

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...0343/1148/rss25
     
  9. wilco

    wilco New Member

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    Well written. You managed to avoid the pitfall of getting too emotional.
     
  10. narussian

    narussian New Member

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  11. darelldd

    darelldd Prius is our Gas Guzzler

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    EXCELLENT letter to the editor chogan! Looks like the position of "Darell acolyte" is still open though. Taking resumes!

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Jul 24 2006, 08:19 AM) [snapback]291408[/snapback]</div>
    Or... possibly more accurately - you have restated what GM has been saying for many years... and has said again in this article you linked to. We're all aware of what GM thinks of the situation.

    If all we're talking about is money, one would have to total up all the lost sales from the disgruntled owners, their friends, their family, etc.... and compare that to the $60 million that they could have made. How is this bad press working out for them? They've bought all the keywords to Who Killed the Electric Car on Google, Yahoo, etc. When you search for the movie, the GM "response" page is right at the top. Do we account for that money too?

    And if we're talking about just these 800 cars... why don't we talk more about WHY there were only 800 made? GM says that's all they could lease - ignoring the fact that 800 was all that they ever put up for lease. the implication that no more than 800 could have been leased is pure, unadulterated BS. The EV1 was the only vehicle in history where the policy was to keep drivers OUT of that car. Drive to any dealership today and express interest in a car. Can you now walk out of the dealership and NOT be asked what it'll take to get you in that car TODAY? The EV1, however, was a different animal. I did not "qualify" to own one. Most people did not qualify to own one. And for those who did qualify... there were not enough of the cars to satisfy the list. No, you won't hear this from GM. Please hear it now from a guy who was part of the process. (I eventually got my EV1 lease through other "unofficial" channels. I leased a "used" car, since I could not qualify for the new ones.)

    Next point - Somebody... please. ANYBODY... point me to this law of needing parts for a car for ten years. GM has said this so many times that it has been accepted. What and where is this law, exactly? And what of other "failed" cars? The Chevy SSR? Why don't they take all those off the road and crush them since so few have sold. That's only the recent failure that I can think of... there have been many over the years. Yet those cars are never recalled or crushed. They're sold to whoever has the money... and I guess GM continues to support them? I don't know what the current number of SSR sales are - I just know that during the initial release, they sat on the lot a hell of a lot longer than the EV1s ever did. Did they stop the sales off SSRs and call the others back in? No. They lowered the price and kept trying to give them away. Why?
     
  12. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    The GM response page my be at the top, but it's by no means the only result of a google search.

    And anyone who knows anything about googling knows a paid result when they see one. GM paid to be #1 at the top.

    I never click on any of the paid results of any search. My Father didn't raise no stupid children.
     
  13. darelldd

    darelldd Prius is our Gas Guzzler

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 25 2006, 07:36 PM) [snapback]292354[/snapback]</div>
    Excellent. But then you're wasting GM's money! They'll probably just add that to the EV1 tab and call it a day. :) The "cost" of the EV1 program grows every day.... didn't have to be that way. Maybe - like with the Prius - they could have made money with the EV1 due to the commanding head-start they had on EVs. We'll never know. It would have taken commitment that never existed.

    Certainly GM could have failed to succeed with the EV1. They didn't. They instead chose to succeed to fail.
     
  14. chogan

    chogan New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jul 25 2006, 10:16 PM) [snapback]292344[/snapback]</div>
    Darell,

    For what it's worth, I carefully reread the Wikipedia article on the EV-1. They make it pretty clear that the 10-year support rule was "corporate policy", hence failure to support would have been "against corporate policy". And we all know the penalties for that. The article appears otherwise well-written. Had there been a legal basis, it seems like that would have been mentioned. So barring other information, I conclude that it was "against corporate policy". That's not quite as lame as you can get, but it's clearly pretty lame.
     
  15. darelldd

    darelldd Prius is our Gas Guzzler

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Jul 27 2006, 05:43 PM) [snapback]293534[/snapback]</div>
    Please, be VERY careful about the Wikipedia entry for the EV1. It changes almost daily as GM tries to steer it with the same old PR of "we could not make a business model out of 800 units sold." We try to keep the thing factual, and are having a hell of a time doing so. Remember that ANYBODY can edit those articles, so even reading it closely doesn't mean you're getting the the straight poop.

    That said... that's an interesting take on the coporate policy. Hadn't thought of that before, and for many years GM has certainly implied that this is some sort of national "law" that nobody else has actually heard of.

    This is hardly the lamest thing that GM has done as an excuse for the EV1 program termination. Yet as you point out, it is plenty lame enough.

    There are many folks who say that GM had every right to do what they've done. And they are right, of course. I'm just curious as to why GM has to make all these excuses if what they did was so easily justified.
     
  16. bulldog

    bulldog Member

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    All I'll say is that if GM had the vision to stick with the EV program, their financials would have looked a lot better today. Sure it would have required investment in the beginning, but would have paid off if they had the vision.

    Toyota had the vision to stick with the Prius in the US, even when they were laughed at in the beginnning. Now they have multiple Hybrid models selling at MSRP and as fast as they can produce them.
     
  17. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    its obvious to me that whoever wrote that rebuttal to the movie review is a Prius owner. very well written and to the point.