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Why hydrogen is coming, according to Kia

Discussion in 'Fuel Cell Vehicles' started by usbseawolf2000, Dec 3, 2015.

  1. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    "In future, all energy will come as electricity." Those words are not from some environmental activist or soundbite politician, but from a senior figure within the auto industry, which perhaps makes them all the more surprising.

    Dr Sae Hoon Kim is the head of environmental research and development for Kia and parent company Hyundai, and a passionate believer in the hydrogen fuel cell as the future solution to mobility.

    Fuel cells create electricity on the move through the inter-reaction between hydrogen and oxygen in a costly and complex metal box called a fuel stack. The only waste product is water vapour. They can therefore provide all the environmental advantages of a battery-electric vehicle with the range of a combustion-engined car, and would be totally clean if the hydrogen was produced from renewable energy.

    The trouble is, fuel cell vehicles (FCEVs) are still in the early stages of development, are not yet as durable as they should be and are extremely expensive. Currently, only Hyundai (ix35) and Toyota (Mirai) offer one on a commercial basis, and the refuelling infrastructure to support them is as rare as hen's teeth.

    Nevertheless, Kia will begin producing an FCEV in 2020 on a dedicated platform at an initial rate of 1,000 a year as part of an all-encompassing plan to seek market leadership in eco-cars. Last year the company introduced the all-electric Soul EV. In 2016 it will add a plug-in hybrid version of the new Optima and a crossover-style bespoke hybrid called Niro.

    It has plans to increase its portfolio of green vehicles from four to 11 within five years, and is spending more than US$10bn and hiring more than 7,000 new engineers to work on advanced low- or zero-carbon powertrains.

    "Transport uses 60 per cent of all the oil that is refined and creates 23 per cent of greenhouse gases. There will come a day when you have to use new technology to meet regulations," says Kim.

    Those regulations will eventually include EUR95 fines for every gram per kilometre by which manufacturers exceed CO2 targets in Europe; sanctions of US$5 per 0.1mpg by which corporate average fuel targets (CAFÉ) are missed in America; and a refusal of vehicle certification in China for any vehicle which does not achieve a fuel economy average of six litres per 100 kilometres.

    "The CO2 emissions of a hybrid average around 106g/km, so we cannot hit the targets with those," says Kim. "The trend is towards plug-in hybrids, but by 2025 you will be seeing fuel cells from a lot of manufacturers. Honda has said it will start selling a fuel cell vehicle in 2015, Daimler will enter the market in 2017 and BMW, Volkswagen and others will join in 2020."

    There is no more enthusiastic supporter of the fuel cell in the auto industry than Kim. Whatever argument you can throw against the theory – cost, infrastructure, reliability or storage – he has a ready answer.

    "World hydrogen production is 38 million tons, which is enough for 190 million fuel cell vehicles," he says. "It can be produced from any kind of energy, but at the moment it is just a by-product.

    "The future is hydrogen from renewables, but we need to store it, and the man who can control supply and demand is king. But you can produce hydrogen from electricity and store it very easily."

    The lack of a back-up infrastructure, in the form of a refuelling network, is a political issue, not a cost one, he adds. "A German writer said that the whole of Germany could be put within reach of a hydrogen station for the same cost as 50 kilometres of new highway. In Korea we could do it for the same as 20 kilometres. We are producing [FCEV] cars in Korea, but there is not one hydrogen station with public access."

    Kim claims that all obstacles in relation to the safety and extreme weather performance of fuel cell systems have been overcome. What remains to be solved is long-term durability and the introduction of a support infrastructure which would make mass production feasible and bring down costs.

    "We are now guaranteeing five years [of reliability] but we want to guarantee 10 years, so we will have to work a lot," he says. "There is some difficulty with heat rejection in very high temperatures, but our system is currently installed in a car designed for an internal combustion engine. In a bespoke car we could just add more or bigger radiators. Our cold weather performance is the same as a diesel.

    "We [the auto industry] have been studying fuel cells seriously for only 10 or 15 years. At Kia we began in 2008 with just two or three people. Now we have 200 to 300. The performance has improved by 40 per cent since 2008 and it will be 100 per cent better by 2020, when we introduce the next generation of fuel stack.

    "A lot of what we are doing is confidential right now, but we are trying to use some aircraft technologies." The next generation of FCEVs will have greater power density and their cell stacks will be no larger than a 2.0-litre internal combustion engine, Kim says. They will share major components with other electrified vehicles to reduce costs and be optimised for large-scale production.

    "The next generation will be five per cent more efficient, taking us close to the maximum achievable of 60 per cent; 15 per cent lighter; and 15 per cent smaller. They will have a range of 800 kilometres [500 miles] and a top speed of 106mph.

    Why hydrogen is coming, according to Kia - INTERVIEW | Automotive Industry Interview | just-auto
     
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  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    "We are now guaranteeing five years [of reliability] but we want to guarantee 10 years, so we will have to work a lot,"

    The question is how soon can they do that?

    Note: through Kia, Hyundai has a BEV available in more states than their FCEV.
     
  3. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Santa Claus is coming to town, according to Kia?
     
  4. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    When you are listening to someone who is an admitted "enthusiastic supporter" of a idea or concept, as well as being the "Head of Environmental Research and Development" for KIA, then I think you have to keep in mind where the message is coming from.

    I'm not saying he's wrong, predicting the future is a tricky business. But I am saying, given his job, title and background, his message in this regards is going to be as optimistic as possible.

    Enthusiastic Supporters are a dangerous bunch. When I owned a ICE vehicle, and first discovered Prius Chat, I assumed you all were crazy and everything you all said was a Toyota Hybrid implanted lie. I only believe 1/2 of that, 1/2 the time now.
     
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  5. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Sadly -Kia may be speaking the truth. Don't forget - these are coal & natural gas buring cars - and the fossil fuel lobby will NOT go down without a fight. Consider this article in the O.C. register today discussing how much money the lobby spends to make sure your carbon fuel is nearly as free as possible. You can't kick yourself loose of stuff it it's nearly free ... and why would you;

    Fossil fuel subsidies dwarf funding to fight climate change - The Orange County Register
    "... The International Energy Agency estimates that global subsidies total about $490 billion a year. Those direct subsidies are found chiefly in the developing world and in oil-producing nations.

    The International Monetary Fund has a much higher estimate for the global total of fossil fuel subsidies – $5.3 trillion, which includes the costs of the effects of energy use on people's health, the environment and climate change. ..."

    What's funny is, how much more obscenely the hydrogen fuel would be if it were not of abnormally low natural gas prices.
    .
     
    #5 hill, Dec 6, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2015
  6. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Electricity price would increase too if natural gas price raises. Fossil fuel makes up 67% of all electricity in the US grid.
     
  7. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Right, the sky might fall if electricity costs go up. Theoretical future increased electricity cost is a much easier bridge to cross than the insanity of converting perfectly good polluting fossil fuel into much more expensive hydrogen.
     
  8. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I live in one of the cleanest grid electricity. I used to pay over 25 cents in NY. Now, I pay 18 cents per kWh.

    My PiP averages about 140 MPGe on EV miles. That's due to driving it under 60 mph in EV mode. I use gas at higher speed.

    Right now, it cost more to drive with electricity than gas. The break even point for me is $2.10 gas (I paid $1.79 last fill up). I still plug it in because I've invested in my solar panels on my roof top.

    The average cost of electricity is now 13 cents. 100 MPGe EV would be more expensive to drive than 56 MPG Prius at $2.40 gas.

    The sky won't fall but there will be no money saving incentive to buy a plugin that cost more, robs interior space, add an extra chore to plug/unplug daily, etc.
     
  9. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Great! Too bad we can't stop subsidizing so many of the fossil fuels, to the tune of a half trillion a year, and stick with the solar roof more & more. It sounds like you're well on the way to being on the right track.
    .
     
  10. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Let's not get off track. I was responding to your implication that tied natural gas to hydrogen.

    I said electricity is tied to it as well. Let's not play the game trying to pretend that H2 is natural gas and electricity is renewable.

    Kia is right. Hydrogen is the future of mobility as it can be produced by any of the primary fuels without the drawbacks of electricity.
     
  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    until the laws of physics is cracked, cost wise, h2 is natural gas and coal. As you already know, COAL is Toyota's INTENDED source fuel to reform their hydrogen cars' hydrogen. It really doesn't matter that hydrogen can be made from cow poop, or methane, or grass, or children's laughter - because reality is what it is, and that means for the next few decades at least, any hydrogen of quantity will come from natural gas or coal - just like Toyota is now planning. No pretending necessary. To all the readers who are getting bored of hearing both sides rehashed, I apologize. But the motive should be obvious.
    .
     
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  12. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I see that you are not following hydrogen at all. I recommend you google "hypersolar". Even Panasonic is pilot testing.

    I know that's one of their short term strategy to get the ball rolling. They are also bottling up solar hydrogen from Australia, not just produced by coal. Let's not confuse, intentionally or not, that with their long-term vision/goal.

    Toyota Global Site | Toyota Environmental Challenge 2050
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    If only hydrogen lobbyists and supporters in regulation also did the flip of this statement.
     
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