Why I Got Rid of My New Prime

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by James Luckett, Jan 10, 2020.

  1. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk 'Orrible Oracle

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    I'm loath to ask this, but what factors make the base oil "better"? And for that matter, how to define "better"? Maybe there's trade-offs??

    For example, maybe sometimes: good enough, cheap and readilly available are "better"?
     
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  2. Gokhan

    Gokhan Active Member

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    American Petroleum Institute (API) divides base oils into these categories: Group I (petroleum-based, least processed), Group II (petroleum-based, well-processed), Group III (petroleum-based, severely processed, higher viscosity index), Group IV (PAO), Group V (everything else, including polyol ester (POE) and alkylated naphthalene (AN)).

    Group I is not much used these days in most oils, except as solvent for additives. Group II is the so-called "conventional oil." Group III and above can be labeled as synthetic. GTL (gas to liquid, made from natural gas) falls in performance between Group III and Group IV, but categorically it's considered Group III, albeit better performing than petroleum-based Group III.

    While each base-oil category has their pluses and minuses, higher categories have many desired properties. Probably the most desired of these is the resistance to oxidation, with Group III (cheaper synthetic) having more resistance to oxidation than conventional (Group II). In turn, GTL has even more resistance to oxidation, and PAO has even more resistance oxidation. This results in longer oil-change intervals with better, more expensive base oils.

    Higher resistance to oxidation of better base oils can also result in cleaner engines.

    Other advantages of better base oils are better cold-flow properties, higher viscosity index, and lower volatility at high temperatures. Higher viscosity index (more resistance of an oil to thin with increasing temperature) reduces the amount of viscosity-index improvers needed, which are plastics added to oil to thicken it and therefore desired to be kept at a minimum because of their deposit-forming tendencies. Lower volatility reduces the oil consumption due to evaporation, which is roughly the third of all sources of oil consumption in a healthy engine.

    The obvious disadvantage of better base oils is the cost.

    Some of the lower API groups can offer other advantages, such as better solvency and lubricity and better lubrication in extreme-pressure contacts, but these can be made up by additives used with synthetic base oil and the higher viscosity indexes of these base oils etc.
     
    #62 Gokhan, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
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  3. m8547

    m8547 Active Member

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    The Toyota Dealership here has 20 service bays, and they are always packed. Sometimes it takes a week to get an appointment. And they charge an arm and a leg for service. The reason is the next dealer is 20 miles away.

    Re: length. The Prime is relatively huge. It's only 6 inches narrower and 6 inches shorter in length than my 2007 Toyota 4runner. I have a small 1-car garage, and the 4runner is an extremely tight fit, and the Prime is still a bit tight. To park the 4runner I have to bump into the table saw I have stored at the front of the garage, and that leaves 3 inches between the back and the garage door. To leave room for a bike next to it, I have to park close to the wall on the driver's side. It's often easier to climb out the passenger side door. I don't park the Prime in the garage much, because I drive it more than the 4runner. A significantly smaller car would be nice, but I bought the Prime for various reasons.
     
  4. Chazman62

    Chazman62 Member

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    For me, Prime is also a little too big. I rarely have a front passenger, maybe a couple times a month at this time. Never had anyone sit in the back yet since owning for 45 days now. I rarely carry anything in the hatch area either. The smaller size Ioniq was a better fit for me size wise. But there were several other advantages that Prime had over Ioniq and I'm happy that I bought it. I don't think I will ever buy an ICE only vehicle in the future. Driving Plug-In Hybrid is very (positively) addicting... and I've been legally driving since 1978 (not so legally 76!) and I've owned 30+ ICE only cars/trucks in the past and I'm not counting numerous bikes.
     
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  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Just to add.

    Group III being labeled synthetic is a US thing because of court outcomes. Can't be labeled such in other markets(Castrol Syntec 0/5w-40 is a German import and a true synthetic), but I don't know the situation in Canada.

    The Group IV and V oils are made from chemicals derived from petroleum and/or natural gas, though some have a renewable, biobased potential.
     
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  6. George W

    George W Active Member

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    I'll just stick with Toyota recommended fluids
     
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  7. Gokhan

    Gokhan Active Member

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    Yeah, it's actually only in Germany. German law requires oils labeled as full synthetic (vollsynthese) to be entirely PAO-based (with some Group V to improve the solvency). In Germany Group III is labeled as HC synthese, HC meaning hydrocarbon.

    In every other country, Group III can be labeled as full synthetic.

    Moreover, Castrol 0W-40 and Castrol 5W-40 are no longer fully PAO-based. Castrol 0W-30 and Castrol 0W-40 used to be fully PAO-based until several years ago, but now, PAO makes only about a third or perhaps half of the base oil, the rest being primarily Group III. There is a mid-SAPS Castrol 0W-30 ACEA C3 (not the full-SAPS Castrol 0W-30 ACEA A3/B4), which is fully PAO-based, but it's not available in US.

    Here is a long read on the history of "What is synthetic?" wars:

    A defining moment for synthetics: Parts I & II -- Katherine Bui, Lubricants World, Oct/Nov 1999
     
    #67 Gokhan, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
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  8. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    Do I have a couple of threads mixed up ?
    I thought that someone (you?) had stated that it was not necessarily a good thing to change your oil early.
    If that was NOT you.......and/or a different thread.......SORRY !!!
     
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  9. George W

    George W Active Member

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    I've never advocated changing oil too often. I have advocated going with Manufacturers recommended fluids.
     
  10. CharlesH

    CharlesH CA HOV Decal #5 on former PiP

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    I think that this is the first post I have seen where someone objects to the heat pump system in the Prime. The heat pump was a big reason I moved from the 2012 PiP to the Prime.The heat pump is incredibly efficient compared to the resistance heating in most EVs (including the Tesla). If you really want to burn gasoline to heat rather than use up the battery, one can just tap the EV/HV button and toggle to HV for a short time, triggering a warm-up. The Prime will happily use the warm coolant in a conventional heater core to warm the cabin; if there is warm coolant from the engine running for any reason, the heat pump won't be used. The Prime also has the exhaust heat recovery feature to warm up the coolant.
     
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  11. Marine Ray

    Marine Ray Senior Member

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    Agree with your comments. I submit that once the RAV4 Prime becomes available more folks will embrace the advantages of a PHEV. Sadly, then our little "secret" will be exposed.
    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
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  12. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk 'Orrible Oracle

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    A plug-in Matrix would be cool...
     
  13. dubit

    dubit Active Member

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  14. douglasjre

    douglasjre Active Member

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    Tax credit is an unpaid portion of income as I read it. So if you earn $100,000 and your AGI is $75,000 and your tax basis is 20% you can lower your AGI by the tx credit amount, say $7500 credit, leaving an AGI of $67500 that you pay 20% of. 15000-13500 is $1500 tax savings. Am I reading this wrong?
     
  15. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    well - since we're off topic anyway - once earnings are in the 6 figures, you're 80% likely to trigger AMT - which disallows tax credits anyway .... unless the vehicle is business registered, which lets you carry over 1yr. But WHO in their right mind would rely on tax fun facts gleaned from an auto blog site ?!?

    .
     
  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i never hit the amt in 30 years over 6 figures +. all through that time, i heard all the warnings and worries.
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    You're confusing tax credit with tax deduction. A deduction is applied to the income. A credit is applied directly to the tax owed.
     
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  18. Chazman62

    Chazman62 Member

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    I wonder how the OP thinks of his new Ioniq since it's been a couple weeks comparing to Prime he had.
    Ioniq is the closest competitor against Prime in the market currently - size, performance, efficiency, MSRP, etc.
     
  19. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    yep - thank your CPA's diligence & talents

    Capture+_2020-01-16-07-42-10-1.png
    .
     
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  20. David Rush

    David Rush New Member

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    Thankyou for all the info you provided. I am going to be reading oil info with a lot more knowledge now. In the past I thought most synthetics were approximately equal.

    Regarding tax issues, it's much easier in Canada as our government incentives are rebates that the dealer simply takes off the final price. In British Columbia, the federal and provincial rebates for the Prime are about the same as the Prime's upcharge over the Prius so it would be a fairly odd set of requirements to buy a regular Prius.
     
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