Why I Hate my Prius Prime

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by stevepea, Apr 29, 2017.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    15,112
    6,869
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Whatever the expected number of hydrogen vehicles is, the commercial stations will need to built for higher through rates to reduce the chance of someone getting stuck waiting and wondering why didn't they just buy the BEV or non-hydrogen fueled PHEV. California has already made that mistake.

    This, of course, will increase the station's cost. Which is already higher than that for liquid fuel stations and DC fast chargers.
    Reformation is cheaper, which is why it will be the preferred source for hydrogen.

    If any method of freeing hydrogen was easy, there would be some of it laying around for us to use. If we are going to take the electricity and water approach, we could add CO2 and get methane or even liquid hydrocarbons for not much more cost.

    The grid can fill up 3 to 4 Model 3's(310 mile range) to every Mirai(312 miles) it fills.
     
  2. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    4,993
    3,622
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Reformation is only cheaper if you don't include the cost of transport and if you maintain the assumption of unlimited cheap natural gas.

    But it takes too long and makes you have to tote around a thousand pounds of battery you rarely need. That energy loss (acceleration and rolling friction losses) is about the same as the loss of using grid-electrolysis produced hydrogen for 1/3 of your total miles. So energy wise, it's a wash.
     
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    15,112
    6,869
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    An on site steam reformer at the station might be able to make hydrogen for $2/gge.
    https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/06/f23/fcto_myrdd_production.pdf

    Hydrogen from electrolysis depends upon cheap electric rates.
    [​IMG]
    April: Producing industrial hydrogen from renewable energy

    For much of the country, electric rates will exceed the rates in those charts.
    Electricity Monthly Update

    Natural gas makes up a portion electric generation, As long as that remains, increases to its price will effect electric rates.

    Hydrogen tanks are no spring chickens, and a top of the line one will have 95% of its filled weight going to the dead weight of the tank itself. Since the discussion is plug in FCEVs, the cars will also have a substantial battery. The physical requirements of the tank could mean the FCEV loses more space to the tanks plus battery than a BEV.

    Unless the hydrogen station is over built, the fill times for hydrogen will average out to longer than what people are use to with gasoline or diesel.
     
  4. heiwa

    heiwa Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2016
    222
    211
    0
    Location:
    Central Valley, CA
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    If you can recharge hydrogen at home, FCEV would be a fabulous way to go. What do you think of something like Joule Box, a portable power plant on YouTube?

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  5. ckam1989

    ckam1989 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2014
    185
    358
    7
    Location:
    Irvine, CA
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    I also have a 40-50mile commute daily (PiP owner) I'm always jealous when I see a prime sitting in front of me. ❤️ The aesthetic of the car is beautiful. For me, I don't feel like I could fully trust the full EV. It's like charging a phone every night (i forget time to time)

    I also think the prius/prime is much more comfortable than the bolt/volt (was thinking about getting another hybrid). The 120 mile range isn't enough. especially to Vegas and back or mini vacation locations
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    23,448
    13,218
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL with 2014 BMW i3-REx
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    You might consider a used, BMW i3-REx. The 72 mile EV range with another 78 miles of gas range makes it a nice solution. Granted you live in California and I would never suggest violating local ordinances like post speed limits. Still, living in Alabama, I've coded my BMW i3-REx:
    • Default middle of three driving modes for efficiency (and also increases effective range)
    • Changed usable fuel tank from 1.9 to 2.3 gallons
    An end-of-lease, BMW i3-REx can be bought for $20-25k with recommendation to look at the 2015 model year because they made the high-speed, CCS charger standard.

    Bob Wilson
     
    ckam1989 likes this.
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    23,448
    13,218
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL with 2014 BMW i3-REx
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    You might consider a used, BMW i3-REx. The 72 mile EV range with another 78 miles of gas range makes it a nice solution. Granted you live in California and I would never suggest violating local ordinances like posted speed limits. Still, living in Alabama, I've coded my BMW i3-REx:
    • Default middle of three driving modes for efficiency (and also increases effective range)
    • Changed usable fuel tank from 1.9 to 2.3 gallons (for cross country)
    • Enable REx to sustain charge as high as 75% SOC (for cross country)
    An end-of-lease, BMW i3-REx can be bought for $20-25k with recommendation to look at the 2015 model year because it includes the fast DC charger port, CCS.

    On the downside, the $140-160 tires appear to go about 15k miles. Also, I'm only getting 40 MPG on the REx at 70 mph. Faster than 70 mph draws down the battery charge and decreases MPG. Mine is a 2014 model and had an infantile problem with a motor mount bolt. For more details see my BMW i3-REx thread in "Other cars" -> "EV"

    Bob Wilson
     
    #147 bwilson4web, Oct 5, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
    ckam1989 likes this.
  8. MikeDee

    MikeDee Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2013
    1,080
    377
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Is there really any proof that trying to save EV battery for driving in the city, slow speeds, etc. is a more economical way to drive? I simply drive the car and when the EV battery runs down, that's it.
     
  9. Bob Comer

    Bob Comer Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2010
    675
    425
    0
    Location:
    South Carolina low country
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    There is as far as I'm concern, I get almost 20 more miles a gallon saving my EV for slower speeds. For my whole daily commute I get in the 70's just starting with EV and letting it run out, and 90's if I save it for the slower speeds. Yesterday I got my best ever, 106.8 for the whole day...
     
  10. Bob Comer

    Bob Comer Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2010
    675
    425
    0
    Location:
    South Carolina low country
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    There is as far as I'm concern, I get almost 20 more miles a gallon saving my EV for slower speeds. For my whole daily commute I get in the 70's just starting with EV and letting it run out, and 90's if I save it for the slower speeds. Yesterday I got my best ever, 106.8 for the whole day...
     
  11. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    5,062
    1,752
    1
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    Gas engines are most efficient at a higher workload. Using it when it is most efficient is optimal.
     
  12. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    2,302
    1,657
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    If you just leave to chance when the ICE will come on then sometimes it will come on just as you get to a stop light, for example. And you'll sit there, going no where, just to warm up the ICE. If you decide when to start the ICE when you know you'll be driving relatively fast without stopping then all the warm up time will also be moving the car.
    This is besides any gains gotten because you might be driving slow while in EV and not putting enough demand on the ICE to have it reach an optimum speed.

    Mike
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    15,112
    6,869
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Haven't seen that system, but others have been proposed.

    First, it'll have the issues of a home CNG filling station, but worse. Filling a CNG Civic with the Phil system took around as long as charging up a BEV. The required annual service of changing seals and membranes for it was around a $1000, the system was about $5000 back in the late '90s. Hydrogen will require more robust materials, because it is more reactive than natural gas, and the pumps need to go up to at least 5000psi versus the CNGs 3500psi. That won't completely fill the 10k psi tanks hydrogen cars now use, though. This all increases the cost.

    In addition, a hydrogen system needs a way to store the gas if producing it by electrolysis; its a slow process to do efficiently. If using home PV, the system needs to be over sized compared to what is required for charging a BEV. Reforming NG on site is an option, but there are home FCEV units available for providing power that can also be cogen hot water and heat. Factor in the cost of the pump for filling the car, it is cheaper and more efficient to get such a system for the home and a plug in car.
     
    heiwa likes this.
  14. thoatvidiadem

    thoatvidiadem New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2017
    5
    2
    0
    Location:
    vietnam
    Vehicle:
    2017 Nissan LEAF
    Model:
    III
    The mechanics of the center position were decided by personal injury and product liability lawyers several decades ago. If a (small) person can sit there, then there must be a seat belt there, making it a 5-passenger car, regardless of actual load capacity and reasonable passenger space.
     
    fuzzy1 likes this.
  15. Prime8

    Prime8 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    85
    106
    0
    Location:
    Oregon
    Vehicle:
    2020 Prius Prime
    Model:
    XLE
    The reason I hate my Prime is because it makes the math to justify getting a Model S fail. I drive 1000 miles per week. My fuel costs with gas at $2.50, and mpg at 76, now makes monthly fuel savings with the Model S $141. $141 per month savings does not go very far towards helping with the purchase of a $100,000 car.
     
    fuzzy1 likes this.
  16. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    2,187
    1,671
    18
    Location:
    Chicago western burbs
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Would cheaper gas, more Prime EV % miles, and a Model 3 make it happen sooner?
     
  17. Prime8

    Prime8 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    85
    106
    0
    Location:
    Oregon
    Vehicle:
    2020 Prius Prime
    Model:
    XLE
    No. Cheaper fuel, and more Prime EV range makes the math worse.

    Regarding the Model 3, waiting months for the Prime was hard enough. Waiting for the 3 will be an eternity. I have a path that I take that has Superchargers 225 miles apart. This would force me to buy the long range Model 3, since Standard only has 220 miles of range. After AWD, needed for mountain passes in the winter, autopilot, auto drive, and Unlimited Supercharger, which may not be available in the 3, I may as well get the S while I can still get the 7500 tax credit. So now I try to explain to my wife that I will save $141 per month by spending $100,000 on a car, and she just laughs.
     
    priuscatprimeguy likes this.
  18. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    13,699
    7,305
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Be sure to allow for a very significant discount to the claimed range when crossing mountain passes in winter conditions, just as we must allow for reduced MPG and range in gassers in those same conditions. I.e. the S might not be as good a fit as you hoped.

    Yet. Until more & closer stations are available.
     
    priuscatprimeguy likes this.
  19. Washingtonian

    Washingtonian Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2017
    462
    421
    0
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    If you are driving 50,000 miles a year as you stated, think how much a $100K car will depreciate in a year or two with that mileage on it. I would guess a two year old Tesla with 100 thousand miles on it would be worth about half of what you paid for it and a two year old Prime about the same percentage. Forget the $141 per month savings when you losing $2000 a month in depreciation.
     
  20. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    41,076
    12,632
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Technology
    That is mostly true. The Model S does break the mould with lower depreciation just because of the higher demand for second hand versions. In Canada, with fewer examples, the used car prices are much higher than in the states.

    e.g. a CPO (by Tesla) Model S P85D with 58,590km (17,868 miles) with premium package, moonroof and autopilot 1.0 is selling for CAD$97,200. (USD$75,000 at current exchange rates of CAD1= US0.789). These cars were bought when the exchange rate was at parity so the higher exchange rates means new car prices are higher and therefore used cars can command a higher price thus an even lower depreciation rate in Canada.

    But I digress. In the US, it should still be lower than typical luxury cars like the 7 Series, S-Class and LS.
     
Loading...