Why I've Concluded We Must Continue in Iraq

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Jun 22 2006, 09:37 PM) [snapback]275569[/snapback]</div>

I should have stated rather to defend Muslims than Islam... but my primary concern was responding to someone who made the sentiment that my parents, relatives, and friends should be killed, and I will NEVER take that lightly.

General mistreatment of women in Islam is on the average lower... it is definitely more prominent than terroristic ideations. One cited example is Saudi Arabia, where last time I checked women were not allowed to drive. But as fshagan says, it is much better in the more democratic and "liberal" Muslim countries (liberal for them means something different than what it means here... by liberal I mean a looser interpretation of the Quran and Hadith... the Hadith being collections of the saying of Mohammed (PBUH... done as a sign of respect for him... it means Peace Be Upon Him).

The Lebanese are an excellent example of the "liberal" Muslim. IE liberal in the religious sense and not politically... though that does not exclude muslims from being liberals... you tend to have fewer liberals (in the political sense) in Muslim communities... IE when you consider the average, they seem to be less tolerant of ideas such as homosexuality. I do have some stories about that (not about me personally!), but PM me if you are interested in hearing those... I would rather not reveal them 'publicly.'

I do have the knowledge to address the hijab... (not the burka... which is a fundamentalist Shia/Sunni thing)... people can see the symbol of the hijab as they want to, but to some Muslim women... it is actually a liberating thing.

-A speaker to my Francophone literature course (a study of African culture, literature, people, religions, etc) was a Muslim woman who started to wear the hijab more frequently... she said how people gave more respect to her when she wore the hijab. IE people would open doors for her and in general be more polite... both in African countries and here in the US.

-The Muslim view of the hijab is that is like a protective covering for pearl... IE meant to protect the beauty from the primal instincts of males. Hey, it was much more applicable in the past, but if they accept that reasoning (assuming they had a choice) who is it for us to say they are treated worse? As long as they are conditions that do not force them to wear the hijab, then I will argue that the hijab... in those conditions specifically, is a great symbol for muslims who choose to wear it... IE great symbol in the sense of it protecting beauty. I do not expect anyone to accept that view, but if they choose it who can argue against that?

-The mosque is an oft-cited example of the uneven treatment between men and women... I know of NO mosque in which the women are able to stand with the men and not wear a hijab... IE in every mosque I have seen, women stand behind the men and are required to be covered. Before you make up your mind on how demeaning that is to women, I propose the following reasoning:

-When Muslims are facing Allah (and Arab Christians, when speaking Arabic, use the term Allah when they mention God)... IE their time dedicated to their God... the last thing the men want to be distracted by is a woman's booooooo-tay half a foot from their face!!! Sorry if that was crass... but the point I am making here is that when a man is facing his God, I think the last thing he wants on his mind is sex :lol:! This is accentuated by the way Muslims pray (picture of Muslims praying on a webpage):

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/islam/

To keep it brief... they basically do a series of standing up, bowing, and prostrating movements.... in lines ahead of each other... I can't imagine what it would be like for a gay Muslim!!!!! (sorry, I couldn't help it!)

Of course certain criticisms of Islam are warranted and accurate... Shariah law is essentially an Islamic fundamentalist order... and DOES indeed accept behaviors demeaning to women and people in general... I have been to Saudi Arabia and Muslims will discuss how a mere accusation from stealing a piece of bread from a vendor can possibly lead to getting your hand cut off... they assume that every Muslim will speak the truth and nothing but the truth, so to speak... since they are in their land of god. I have no doubt in my mind that their have been innocents who have had their hands chopped off. These punishments in Saudi are real... but they are not quite so alarmist... IE the punishments are so strict that fewer people will risk crimes... that being said, there so many beggars in Mecca that things like stealing inevitably happen.

---------------

But going back to fshagan's question... can Islam go through a reformation and advance theology as how Christians have? Based on what I know, I personally believe that it will happen... and that it has happened already among the more democratic Islamic countries such as Turkey and Lebanon. There was a very good article in the Christian Science pulication addressing that question... and the author stated an argument that the stricter factions of Islam are eventually going to have to come to grip with reality... and that they eventually will. I cannot find that article, but

"For model Muslim state, cultivate Pakistan"
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0407/p09s01-cojh.html

"Progress in the Muslim World"
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0324/p08s03-comv.html

I do not know anything about the Reformation... therefore it would be very difficult for me to see if there could be parallels with the Reformation movement. I would enjfoy hearing some information about it, fshagan. Of course, I can look it up easily... but I find that it de-personalizes discussions IMO.

When I was in Istanbul, Turkey, I had the coolest tour guide ever... his name was Ugr, and this guy should be writing books! He talks with passion about hope for peace and love in Islam for people of other religions... he castigated the fundamentalists of Islam and spoke of how one day he hoped everyone in the world could get along. He was truly a man of peace... and if anything he would most resemble a 'Muslim Reformationist.'

Certain smaller sects like wahhabists will perhaps have problems for awhile, if not forever. If you plucked one of them and put him into Jordan, Lebanon, or Turkey they would go absolutely nuts!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope that anwered all the questions... and I certainly do not know everything about Islam myself... but I must get ready for Friday prayers... I am, after all, still a dependent... and I have no desire to piss off or hurt my parents by supporting my beliefs to them... or my Muslim friends... yea that's very hypocritical... but until I am independent I do not see any other option... except to be a hypocrite for a few more years.

I would love to hear your all's experiences!

Sorry one more thought... I was offended by an indirect threat to my American Muslim parents and friends... for the life of me... I cannot begin to fathom what the parents of the two POW's felt about their situation. I hope we can hold a PC moment of silence for them.

 

One of my problems with Islam is that they so willingly combine religious and political/civic power. Time and time again we see in history that this is a bad combination.

Wildkow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ghostofjk @ Jun 23 2006, 10:19 PM) [snapback]276120[/snapback]</div>

The notion of sacrificing one's life is by no means limited to Muslim suicide bombers. For instance, there were the Japanese kamikaze pilots in WWII. Even in our own military, the concept of giving one's life for one's country is romanticized. However, the great soldier is the one who allows the enemy to sacrifice HIS life for HIS country.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Jun 23 2006, 10:28 PM) [snapback]276127[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Jun 23 2006, 08:38 AM) [snapback]275806[/snapback]</div>

Thats the most insiteful thing I've ever heard you say!!!

Proclaiming religion or God being on yourside means little if God doesn't back you up with "acts" of God to follow.

But be careful about your proclaimation about men of God... they are not perfect, but God defends them nevertheless!

If they are not men of God, you have nothing to worry about.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jun 22 2006, 10:38 AM) [snapback]275228[/snapback]</div>

What makes you think huge profits for oil companies would translate into less expensive gasoline for you?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Jun 23 2006, 06:34 PM) [snapback]276032[/snapback]</div>

It's certainly a frightening enough combination with the Christianist politicians in this country!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ghostofjk @ Jun 23 2006, 10:19 PM) [snapback]276120[/snapback]</div>

Well, desperately poor people have less to lose by martyring themselves. Terrorists from wealthy families are more likly to be organizers of suicide bombers rather than suicide bombers themselves.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Jun 23 2006, 07:28 PM) [snapback]276127[/snapback]</div>

Oh yeah great comparison lairkin! The MSB's and Japs were locked into their vehicles/airplanes or lied to about their mission. While the US soldier voluntarily gave his for the benefit of others and not some promise of virgins in heaven he could rape for eternity.

Wildkow

p.s. Dang, shouldn't have mentioned the virgin thing now he's is on his way down to the local mosque to signup.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Jun 24 2006, 06:00 AM) [snapback]276252[/snapback]</div>

I know that this is beyond your intellectual comprehension, but I will try to explain it in the simplest terms possible. I was not in any way making a statement that the motivation of our soldiers is the same as suicide bombers or kamikae pilots- I was making a general observation about the concept of self-sacrifice. Yes, I know, too "nuanced" for you to understand.

By the way, bigot, "Jap" is a racist term that people of Japanese descent consider to be offensive.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Jun 22 2006, 12:54 PM) [snapback]275294[/snapback]</div>

I don't see that in Ghost's post. He's stating support of one of Bush's positions, not stating support of ALL of Bush's positions.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jun 22 2006, 11:45 PM) [snapback]275658[/snapback]</div>

<snort> Martin Luther was a raving antisemite. I don't consider variations on who to blame for killing christ and how to deal with abortion clinics "reform".

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Jun 24 2006, 03:00 AM) [snapback]276252[/snapback]</div>

They will only be virgins a few minutes and then there won't be any..... :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Jun 24 2006, 07:02 AM) [snapback]276286[/snapback]</div>

Yes you were as this post also reflects when you say "I was making a general observation about the concept of self-sacrifice" self-sacrifive is a motivation therefore spin it anyway you want you are comparing them. So it seems that your intellectual comprehension isn't up to the task of understanding your own whacko ideas.
When they were flying their planes into our ships in WWII they were Japs and that is the reference. It is inappropiate to use the term today.

Wildkow

p.s. you need to pull your nuance out of yer butt then maybe you will understand why all that BS comes out of your mouth.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RonH @ Jun 25 2006, 07:17 AM) [snapback]276455[/snapback]</div>

Of course not! Everything is so much clearer in "Black and White" BaHaHaHaHaHaaaaa :lol:

 

Larkin is absolutely correct, and is speaking from a historical perspective. In history, people have often give up their lives for a cause (whether that cause be a nation, religion, region, and other beliefs in something)... knowing full well that they could lose their lives for that cause. Last time I checked, that is the definition of a martyr.

And that right there is one issue I have with people who crticize academics for being liberals... some do not like academics 'libs' because they do not support the position of one side... rather they seek the ideas of different sides, and some people just can't stand that... and automatically label them as liberals in a descending connotation.

But back to the discussion... larkin brought up two common examples that were of people who we had fought in the past... and by now I would think people could view those events in a historical context.

The insurgents often use civilians and abuse them (duh)... IE like the insurgents in Iraq... threatening to kill people if they do not help them or keep silent or whatnot. Terrorists/suicide bombers as I see it have less of a moral compunction to respect civilian life, such as children. Larkin, as he said so in his later post, was not making a comparison between the two, and thus it is not a valid criticism of his post.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Jun 26 2006, 12:25 PM) [snapback]276837[/snapback]</div>

You used it two days ago. I guess it was OK then.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Jun 26 2006, 10:10 AM) [snapback]276862[/snapback]</div>

Sure it was.. if they don't like being reminded of thier history, its thier own problem to work out.

When referring to the Japanese of those times... "they were japs" because they are the ones who decided and executed the plan to surprise attack us while we were sleeping.

The Japanese of today are "Japanese"... although thier history gives a negative slant on thier nation, those of today carry no responsibility for what happened back then and in most cases are Americans anyway when raised over here.

Just like a Nigger is a nigger and deserves the connotation it carries and should be called so, but with that being said, Most blacks are not so.
There are many whites that are niggers. The connotation that that word carries in my mind is a lazy, welfare sucking, back stabbing, good for nothing that cannot be depended upon... remind you of anyone you know?

Having slanted eyes or colored skin does not automatically win you all the negative historical references to your creed.
Every man has a right to earn his own way and respect.

I give japenese of today more respect than I give most Americans if you have read many of my posts... they are people of integrity, hard workers with family vales and make a real positive impact to the society of which they participate in... I can't say that for many Americans!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Jun 23 2006, 06:34 PM) [snapback]276032[/snapback]</div>

Agreed.

 

I suppose one way of looking at criticisms of Islam is that some are right on the spot and others are not so... and there is a continuum in between... I suppose you can say something like that of any issue???

I'd like to point out one positive and one negative that hasn't been brought up yet (to my knowledge):

Positive:
"Pakistan bans 'The Da Vinci Code' movies"
http://www.wkyt.com/Global/story.asp?S=498...nav=menu181_2_1

Negative
"Europe’s Muslims go to extremes to be ‘virgins’:
Women try hymen repair, get fake virginity certificates before marriage"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13547996/

I would not be surprised if this was happened in the strictest of American Islamic communities.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Jun 26 2006, 01:16 PM) [snapback]276967[/snapback]</div>

Wow!....no comment on that one except to say.... I wonder how many virgin men there are when they get married?

 

I'd say it is not uncommon to have Muslim males that are virgins into marriage. All the way up to my senior year in high school I had the strictest Muslim 'friend,' who pinched me every time I spoke to a chick. Some of these guys are raised to be inept in the dating world.