Why no NHTSA front or side crash testing rating?

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by Shaunius, Nov 5, 2019.

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  1. Shaunius

    Shaunius Junior Member

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    Anyone else find this strange? The car has been in production for four years now and still nothing?

    After purchasing two a 2020 and 2019 I am got supremely concerned when a fellow neighbor prius prime driver reported the following:

    October 30, 2019 NHTSA ID NUMBER: 11277105
    Components: SERVICE BRAKES, VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL

    NHTSA ID Number: 11277105

    Incident Date October 23, 2019

    Consumer Location GRANADA HILLS, CA

    Vehicle Identification Number JTDKARFP2H3****

    Summary of Complaint

    CRASHYes

    FIRENo

    INJURIES2

    DEATHS0

    TL THE CONTACT OWNED A 2017 TOYOTA PRIUS. WHILE THE CONTACT WAS REVERSING THE VEHICLE INTO A PARKING LOT, IT ACCELERATED WITHOUT WARNING. THE CONTACT ATTEMPTED TO DEPRESS THE BRAKE PEDAL, BUT IT FAILED TO ENGAGE AND CAUSED THE VEHICLE TO CRASH INTO A TREE. ALL THE AIR BAGS DEPLOYED. THE CONTACT DID NOT ENGAGE THE EMERGENCY BRAKE. THE CONTACT AND PASSENGER SUSTAINED MINOR INJURIES AND RECEIVED MEDICAL ATTENTION. A POLICE REPORT WAS NOT FILED. THE CONTACT'S INSURANCE COMPANY TOWED THE VEHICLE TO A LOT AND DEEMED IT A TOTAL LOSS. THE DEALER AND MANUFACTURER WERE NOT CONTACTED. THE CAUSE OF THE FAILURES WAS NOT DETERMINED. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS APPROXIMATELY 13,850.
     
  2. m8547

    m8547 Active Member

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    The Prime uses essentially the same body as the regular Prius. There are cosmetic differences and the extra weight of the battery, but Toyota must have shown that it's not enough difference to do full testing.

    That report is concerning, but it is surprising that two failures would have happened simultaneously. I can't think of any reports on this forum of unintended acceleration OR brake failure, let alone both. I haven't read all the NHTSA complaints. I'm not saying it's impossible, but maybe there's another explanation that we don't know about.
     
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  3. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    Imagine you are looking backwards, what are your odds of finding the wrong pedal. The effects would be exactly the same.
     
  4. Shaunius

    Shaunius Junior Member

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    Theres several other similar reports this may be part of the reason why they are silently trickling supply down for 2020s. Not to add fuel to the fire but we all remember that 911 call heres another in the same state:

    June 20, 2019 NHTSA ID NUMBER: 11220120
    Components: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL

    NHTSA ID Number: 11220120

    Incident Date August 5, 2018

    Consumer Location SONORA, CA

    Vehicle Identification Number N/A

    Summary of Complaint

    CRASHYes

    FIRENo

    INJURIES1

    DEATHS0

    2017 TOYOTA PRIUS. CONSUMER WRITES IN REGARDS TO UNINTENDED ACCELERATION. *LD

    THE CONSUMER STATED THE VEHICLE ACCELERATED AND THE BRAKES WERE UNRESPONSIVE RESULTING IN A CRASH. THE CONSUMER WAS INJURED AND REQUIRED MEDICAL ATTENTION. *JS
     
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  5. m8547

    m8547 Active Member

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    I just read several pages of NHTSA complaints, and 1/3 of them are probably user error, unrealistic expectations, poor driver skill, frivolous complaints, implausible occurrences, etc.

    The Prime is largely the same as the regular Prius. Probably 90% of the parts are the same. It's unlikely that there are many problems specific to the Prime that don't also affect a regular Prius. There's no evidence of quality problems nor any signs that there are issues that would cause Toyota to limit supply. It's always been a low production vehicle, and Toyota doesn't seem to care about how many they sell for whatever reason.
     
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  6. Shaunius

    Shaunius Junior Member

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    Thank you
     
  7. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

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    Yes, the vast majority of these reports of unintended acceleration are ultimately just a case of pressing the wrong pedal. That has been born out in the “black box” investigations, and in the fact that the reports in the ‘80s and ‘90s went away when manufacturers required you to put your foot on the brake before you can switch into gear. That is, to demonstrate that you have the feel for where your feet are.

    Very few, but some, were clearly outright hoaxes — an excuse to sue a company with deep pockets.

    The usual response to “you just hit the wrong pedal” is, “no freaking way! I’ve been driving safely for __ years; there’s *no freaking way* I could make such a stupid mistake!” No, sorry, but you most certainly *can* make such a mistake! Remember, we’re taking about *extremely rare* occurrences here, and yes, extremely rarely, even very-experienced and highly-skilled drivers can make such mistakes.
     
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  8. Zed Ruhlen

    Zed Ruhlen Member

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    Someone mentioned the famous 911 calls so everyone remember the AZ Prius that was accelerating out of control and the guy called 911? Said he couldn't stop it? Well Toyota looked at the car and determined the thing was a hoax and that the guy was behind in his car payments. In fact, what he claimed was happening is literally impossible in the Prius.

    Toyota had an issue with floor mats in the 2000s and handled it poorly but the VAST majority of unintended acceleration from ALL manufacturers is determined to be user error. Unless you own a super car you can easily stop a car from accelerating just using the brakes. Motor Trend even tried it and stopping distances were basically the same as a car that wasn't floored.

    What is even more tragic about the few actual cases is there is a sure fire way to stop unintended acceleration. Actually 2 ways. First just put the car in N. Second, turn it off. Everyone should know this.
     
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  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The issue in the real case is that with push button start and keyless ignition not everybody knows how to turn the car off when it isn't stopped, and changes in how shifters work could mean not knowing how to put it in neutral. With a traditional one, moving it to N is all it takes. With a Prius, it has to be held there for a moment. When panicked, people don't think to try something beyond what they already know.
     
  10. bresna

    bresna Active Member

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    The craziest case was the one where the off duty cop was driving his Camry down a highway at 100+ speeds due to what was claimed to be a claimed stuck gas pedal. Everyone died. You would think that a cop would know - put it in N, then brake to a stop. No electronic shifter involved. I don't know what ever happened with that lawsuit.
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It was a Lexus with push button start. A dealer loaner car, so the driver was unfamiliar with push button start. The pedal got stuck because the dealer had all weather mats over the regular ones. And the high speeds weren't reached until after the pedal got stuck.
     
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  12. m8547

    m8547 Active Member

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    It's pretty easy to make a human error and not realize it.

    The other day I thought I was out of windshield washer fluid. It turns out I was pulling the wrong stick, so I was just flashing my high beams at people. I didn't figure it out until it suddenly started working again a while later.

    I've definitely gotten confused about if the car is in neutral or not, and one time I think I confused D and R. The shifter is confusing because it doesn't have the muscle memory of staying in place. And shifting to neutral is confusing because sometimes it's instant and sometimes it's delayed.

    I mixed up the brake and gas pedal once while backing up, but caught it immediately. The lack of feedback (engine noise and ability to judge speed) while backing up looking at the backup camera makes it a bit more of a problem.

    I still forget to turn the car off on a regular basis because the Park button and Start button are nearly in the same place, and it's the same action. The beeping reminds me as I get out.

    I had "unintended acceleration" once where I forgot the cruise control was on as I got off the highway at an off ramp. So far I've noticed all these errors right away before anything bad has happened.
     
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  13. Zed Ruhlen

    Zed Ruhlen Member

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    Yes, but as Motor Trend proved (using this exact model) the ONLY car they couldn't stop just using the brakes was a Mustang 350. In most cases (looking at you, Toyota) the total stopping distance was only a few feet longer than stopping without the accelerator floored. No putting the car in N, no turning off the ignition, just regular brakes. The reason behind this is that your brakes are FAR more powerful than your motor. Think about it, the car can stop from 60 in 120 feet or so. That's many hundred brake horsepower.
     
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  14. Zed Ruhlen

    Zed Ruhlen Member

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    I had a Dodge Colt Vista (Mitusbishi Chariot) once that had a stuck accelerator on I-5 on the Grapevine above LA. I was going over 100 when I finally figured it was stuck. While it was an adrenaline rush I was able to calmly fix the issue.
     
  15. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

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    I can think of one case, many years ago, when I hit the gas instead of the brake, and I think I recall a couple of cases of the reverse. I was parking in all of those cases, so, although I was driving very slowly, the “tight quarters” could have made it bad. In all cases though, it was really easy to diagnose and quickly correct the problem in all of those cases.

    If substantial injury or property damage were at stake, it’s certainly not hard to imagine myself “in denial” about who was to blame — again saying, “there’s no freaking way I could have made such a basic mistake!” Across millions of drivers, I have *zero* doubt that has occurred, at least very rarely.
     
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    At what speed did they test? The ES350 in question had reached 120mph.

    "The report by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration draws no conclusions about the cause of the Aug. 28 accident, but discloses new details, including the fact that the brakes were heavily damaged. That would seem to confirm a frantic 911 call made by Saylor’s brother-in-law from the speeding car, during which he said, “There’s no brakes.”

    A Times review of NHTSA documents in a past investigation of Lexus vehicles showed that the agency had found that the Lexus ES braking system loses power-assist when the throttle is fully opened, increasing braking distance fivefold.
    ...
    In addition, the vehicle’s brake surfaces showed signs that they had been worn down through heavy braking against the full force of the 272-horsepower Lexus engine.

    “Rotors were discolored and heated, had very rough surfaces, had substantial deposits of brake pad material, and showed signs of bright orange oxidation on the cooling fins consistent with endured braking,” the report said."
    Fatal Toyota crash detailed - Los Angeles Times

    When a gasoline engine is at wide open throttle, it isn't producing much vacuum, and that vacuum pressure is what provides the power boost for the brakes. At that time, braking is going to be much like braking with the engine off. With the engine off, the brake system holds enough pressure for one, maybe two, full applications of the brakes. After that, you are down to just leg strength, and modern brakes aren't sized to stop a car under power with just that.

    "The Lexus ES350 is a case in point. In October 2007, NHTSA closed an Engineering Analysis into unintended acceleration, affecting 55,000 2002- 2008 Lexus ES350 and Toyota Camry vehicles. Drivers had reported that vehicles continued travelling full throttle despite attempts to stop the vehicle. Some reacted by applying the brake pedal multiple times, depleting the braking system's vacuum-based power assist and overheating the brakes, which further diminished the brakes’ effectiveness. Others attempted to turn the vehicle off by depressing the engine control button, unaware that the button had to be depressed for three seconds to stop the engine when the vehicle is in motion."
    Fatal California Crash Highlights Toyota’s Sudden Unintended Acceleration Problem | Safety Research & Strategies, Inc.

    So if you are ever in a situation of unintended acceleration or the engines dies, when you apply the brakes, don't let let up.
     
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  17. bresna

    bresna Active Member

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    But again, this was a police officer... shouldn't he have had some training on this and known to put the car in Neutral? Putting the car in neutral takes all that horsepower off the brakes and all you're doing then is normal braking albeit with a screaming engine whining in neutral.
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Airline pilots shouldn't make mistakes either, but we still have plane crashes because of pilot error.

    In stressful situations, people can panic, or form tunnel vision, and not see what the problem is, let alone how to solve it.
     
  19. Shaunius

    Shaunius Junior Member

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    Thank you for all your comments my primes are now much happier now knowing I’m less concerned. :) IMG_0510.jpg
     
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  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    yes, but the real fault goes to the dealer personnel who piled up too many non oem carpets
     
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