Why "plug in" versus "hybrid?"

Google 'State of Charge' for a detailed analysis.

In short, a large portion of the US population, as I recall, about 45% would produce fewer emissions driving electric than they would driving even the cleanest hybrid (the Prius).

Also, there are numerous reasons for wanting to not use oil. Green house gases is only one of them. The others (national fiscal health, national security, convenience, safety) are not affected by how much GHGs are emitted at a power plant.

As for pollution control, it is far easier to maintain good pollution controls on 100s of power plants rather than 100s of millions of automobiles.
And, ever see are map of particulate pollution for your metro area? They follow the roads. The fewer particulate spewing gas based automobiles the better.

 

What about the power grid? If a lot of the cars turned to all electric, how is 120 V going to cut it?

A Saudi guy told me his home country already has 380 V outlets, and that was years ago. I'm thinking that we would need something like 440 V outlets...thoughts?

 

The power grid doesn't care what size outlets you have.
Studies have been done to look at the potential impact of EVs on the grid. Most have concluded that the current grid could support as many as 50% of cars being plug in vehicles as long as the majority of charging was done at night.

Our grid is already a disaster though and does need upgrading. But this has nothing to do with plug in vehicles, and the addition of plug in vehicles is unlikely to make it worse for quite some time.

 

A couple of issues. First, it doesn't matter what root voltage you have to charge. It is important to realize that power is the product of Volts X Amps= Watts. (watts is how we measure "work", actually watt/hours) The advantge of higher voltage systems is that they can deliver equal power with lower current (amps) reducing line loss and red using wire sizes for equal power output. 120 watts from 120 volts is 1 amp. The same 120 watts from 12 volts is 10 amps, or from 1200 volts is .1 amp. The point is the wattage and ergo the "work" is the same regardless. It should also be noted that the "grid" runs at much higher voltages, In excess of 120,000 vac and more. That same 100 watt load powered by 120kv would draw .0001amp if my math is right! We simply transform HV to working voltages of 120/240 for residential use. There are other combinations that are used in industrial application in N. America , like 120/208/277, 3 phase wye and delta but most folks don't care or need to know about such things. We drop the voltage to make it comparitivley safe to use. You old no more power. 100 watt light bulb with 120kv than you would power a whole house with 1.5 volts! In the former, it is just too dangerous, in the latter, you'd need wire as thick as arm to power a light bulb' as thick as your leg to power your oven!

Second, plug ins can take power from the grid from 100% carbon free sources if the owner has access, including wind, solar and hydro. Additionaly plug ins can absorb excess solar or wind that would otherwise be wasted. Perhaps most importantly, plugins can act as two way battery banks to the grid, reducing the idle, spinning grid capacity that is there just waiting for the next load to be turned on.

In simple terms (using completly available Technolgy today!) a plug in cn buy from the grid when it is cheaper , at times of less demand, but it can lasso sell bck to the grid at times of peak demand and get paid a higher kwh price for its stored power because it is cheaper for the utility to do this than to keep a thermal plant running for a simple (predictable) peak load.

For example, the grid experiences a huge peak load at 7 am every morning, when people turn on the lights the coffee maker and the microwave. This peak demand must be covered by the utility by keeping X amount of capacity running, but not being used until the peak happens (the most wasteful, most polluting energy out there, since it is 100% waste!) if we had 25 million plug ins plugged it 23/7 programmed to buy and sell as needed, (as well as programmed to keep enog power in the car for daily use!) the grid could call on this LARGE disagregated battery bank for times of peak loads, and could reduce the idle, spinning capacity. Additionaly, these cars could then absorb excess grid capacity, especially from wind and solar at times of peak product, power that then could be used off grid and or off peak, giving the world the long sought after "battery bank" for solar and wind, to allow these technologies to effectively produce power to the grid in times of little or no sun or wind.

Consider this. We buy around 16 million cars per annum in the US. If 25% were plug ins, in ten years we could have 40,000,000 large batteries feeding the grid. A not insignificant so urge of peak load power. Also consider this. Most cars sit 23/7, that is they only drive an hour or so a day. ALL the rest of the time they could br plugged in to even a simple 120 vac circuit that is available EVERYWHERE, quietly feeding the grid, and then driving to work, feeding the grid at work, then driving home. It is a win/win/win situation. The car owner wins wth cheaper transportation costs in the net, the utility wins because it can supply peak demand cheaper, and finally the environment wins because you can use clean tech more efficiently, and you can rude idle spinning capacity.

Icarus

 

Those of us with a lot of short trips no longer incur cold engine mpg penalties with an EV, so even in a coal state like mine, the car is so much more efficient in energy use that the ghg emissions are reduced. Plus, our men and women don't have to fight and die in Wyoming coal wars.

 

Electricity is the ultimate 'flex fuel.'

Bob Wilson

 

Except it doesn't do resistance heat very efficiently. From a strict BTU in/BTU out net/net resistance electric heat is really bad! using direct solar, ground and air source heat pumps etc are a much enter way to "make" heat" with electricity.

Icarus

 

Welcome again qdllc, your post reminds me of my first ENVIRONMENTAL post here several years ago: something like "Coal power Volt vs. Gaso Power Prius". In 2012, coal use went way down in the USA so the grid is cleaner at least temporarily.

Hybrid is my car of choice. But hybrids get no subsidies (as you know, hybrid tax penalty in VA).

On the other hand, you can get a Leaf all-electric for approx. $30000 then $7500 Fed rebate + $2500 or more state tax rebates depending on the state. So now you are under $20000 for a $30000 nice car, and some states like WA you could be 8 cents/kWr for electric (VA is 11 cents). That's about a third to half of the cost of gasoline per mile to fill up! Assuming national average grid, you would make about the same amount of CO2 as a Prius, but for many locations including VA, electric is much cheaper energy than gasoline for fill-ups. Aside from $$$, some states (such as CA) give extremely important free HOV access to plug-ins only. That fact alone sells a lot of plug-ins in CA, where most of the plug-ins are sold anyways.

Now then, its still not a fair comparsion, Prius is amazingly big car inside, with great seating for a family 5 and hatchback cargo space. Volt, Leaf, smallish not so great family cars. Another thing is winter, with heat on, the plug-ins will use elec to heat car (use lots of coal) but everybody says I am wrong about that, because they just learn to not use the heat.

Re: PiP Plug-in_Prius if you pay about the same for the plug-in vs. hybrid, why not have the optional capability to plug-in to save on gasoline$$ or other reasons (such as empty gas tank). IN reality current PiP you do give up some space, spare tire and gas tank size smaller so its not exact perfect equal to hybrid.

PS- You might want to follow Chelsea Sexton who is Plug_in_EV-advocate. I like her philosophy which is the main reason for EV driving is the superior quiet power driving experience in an electric mode. I'm not convinced it's for me, but many advocates swear by it.

 

Arc welding anyone?

Bob Wilson

 

Arc welding is not really resistance heating.

Icarus

 

Assume I completely recharge a Volt every day. That would be about $1.80 day.
My A/C cost is $3.87 per day (every day in the summer).

Somehow or another, FL power companies managed to handle the far, far larger electrical tsunami of AC systems added every day (used by virtually every house and business). Note that AC systems need 220V and about 40 Amps. An EV would need less, a lot less. We are good to go with what we have in the house already.

Exactly why is the minor addition of EVs to the grid get so much attention when the introduction of super massive AC loads caused no disruptions whatsoever?

 

Easy peasy:

AC is a need, while EV is an Obamacar only rich liberals want that harms everybody else's FREEDOM.

 

florida might have an advantage over parts of the country with really old grids. i could be wrong, but where my brother lives in southwest florida, everything is practically brand new, and he pays 20% of what i pay for electrons.

 

... can you give us some cents/kWhr cost numbers in that Boston/FL comparison?

 

i'm paying .12 and he is paying .02 for the first 1000 and .03 above that, or vice versa.

edit: he paid $81. for 876 kwh, my kwh used divided by the total comes to .17/kwh, so mine would be $150. i was looking at kwh charge only.

 

Where in FL???? I'm paying 0.12/kWh.

 

bonita springs, see my edit above.

 

According to this, the kwh rate is roughly equal in Fl as it is in MA.

The Price Of Electricity In Your State : Planet Money : NPR

FL probably has a potential with better solar exposure on averqge over the course of the year, but on second thought perhaps not. FL has relatively consistent day light hours, and warmer temps, hence lower output. MA has longer summer days, and cooler winter temps. cooler pv temps mean greater output. Let see what PV watts says... Tampa, witha 4 kw array should yield about 5500kwh/yr. Boston about 4900, not to far different considering. That said, with equal sized systems the one in Boston will yield about $587worth of power (exclusive of any incentives) and the Tampa system will yield only about $490, so clearly the meter rate in Boston is higher.

http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/pvwatts/version1/US/code/pvwattsv1.cgi

Icarus