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Why the BMW i3-REx

Discussion in 'EV (Electric Vehicle) Discussion' started by bwilson4web, May 15, 2016.

  1. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    Yes, Clipper Creek has a great rep.
    There are a number of ethical dilemmas about using that. Tesla provided free HPWCs (Tesla — Wall Connector with 24' Cable or Tesla — Wall Connector with 8.5' Cable) to places like hotels, to provide as "destination chargers". My guess is that hotels can use them in their advertising/as a benefit, to attract higher income people, namely Tesla drivers.

    My work was provided with at least 4 free ones, for some reason. They're installed and we have some more now.

    Their connector is proprietary but it's really just J1772 protocol under the hood, which is why an adapter would work. There are prototypes of the adapters. But then what? Non-Teslas using these and sucking down juice (there's no access control on them) and possibly preventing the target audience (Teslas) from using them?

    There a HUGE debate about the ethics and legality of this at Concerns about Tesla to non-Tesla charging adapters | Tesla Motors Club, which I haven't followed. Over at "TMC", if it's a topic that interests a bunch of people, chances are, it will be discussed to death.

    (Side note: For whatever reason, automotive reliability and durability testing | Tesla Motors Club has garnered crickets, despite plenty of evidence to suggest Tesla's long-term durability and reliability testing is questionable or that they aren't able to produce parts consistently that would pass their tests, assuming they're good enough.)
     
    #41 cwerdna, May 29, 2016
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  2. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    The engineering side of Bob would get too bored with a BEV. They're just too mechanically simple. A PHEV (or BEV with range extender) should keep him busy for a good long time.

    We're in a similar boat. My wife recently sold her 2009 Honda Civic and got a 2016 Leaf SV on a 3-year lease for less than $9k after fed + CA + Nissan incentives. Now we are both EV on commutes and errands and we use my Plug-in Prius as our range extender.
     
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  3. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    Wow! That's pretty good. I'd heard stories about high (total cost of) lease prices on '16 Leaf SV and SL. Maybe you got lucky?

    When I was in the lease market in July 2013, 3 year leases even after the $2500 CVRP (California rebate) were effectively more expensive per month than just getting a 2-year lease which was ineligible for CVRP. So, I went for 2 years.





    Merged.






    On this note, I discovered Destination Charging | Tesla Motors and it has a link that points to Destination Charging.

    I wouldn't be surprised about legal action from Tesla if an adapter that enabled J1772 cars to use Tesla HPWCs became widely available.
     
  4. silverone

    silverone Member

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    Absolutely classic. Love it.

    Was the Chevette at least a Diesel? LOL.

    The ethics debate on a practice that Tesla hasn't publicly spoke on seems premature. Any enforcement of a Tesla Only rule on a "destination charger" would just constitute EV class warfare, and would be detrimental to the entire EV community. Hotel owners would be absolutely crazy to assume that no higher income people could possibly drive something as mundane as a (insert random EV here), although I can't question them placing a sign indicating the chargers are for patrons only.

    Hopefully Tony Williams hasn't been deterred from creating the adapter and it will still be available in some form.

    I can't speak to Tesla's reliability testing program other than to say that customers of any other mass manufactured vehicle would be outraged to have the number of issues I've read about. That is the primary reason I'm not on the M3 waiting list.

    My interest in this topic was initially spurred by the bottom dropping out of the used Leaf market, and the fact you can now get a reasonably decent one for under $10K. I've followed the threads in the Leaf forum including the one cwerdna posted on his lease to auction purchase experience, and still would consider one if the infrastructure was more available. As it is with the lack of local and regional charging infrastructure buildout since 2014, I'll still take a range extender.
     
  5. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    Do the destinations only recognize a Tesla?
     
  6. silverone

    silverone Member

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    They're selectable 20-80A AC units with a Tesla UMC connector, but using the J1772 protocol. They could have just as easily been J1772.
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Did I mention, my 1966 VW MicroBus "… always carried spare parts, tool box, and repair manual." When something breaks, a little voice inside my head says,"Yippie, I get to fix it!!"

    I had considered the Leaf but only as a project to add a range extender engine, possibly on a small trailer or on a receiver hitch platform. But there are degrees of kluge I won't go.

    This is something Nissan needs to engineer especially if they want to sell them in the 'fly over states.' Nissan needs a Leaf+ with an efficient heat engine that generates enough power to sustain the car at 75 mph on a standard day. Integrate the engine with the car and the sum is more than the parts. Include a full-power, 120/220 VAC inverter, and I'll put down a deposit. It becomes a 'power wall' that can drive on the Interstates.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  8. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    Silverone is correct. Tesla HPWCs ONLY have Tesla's proprietary connector. No other vehicles can plug into this, unless someone fashions an unauthorized Tesla connector to J1772 adapter.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    PERFORMANCE
    • 746W (1 hp) assumed vehicle overhead based on Prius metrics. Needs to be measured.
    • 18.7 kWhr usable pack capacity - rated at 22 kWhr but BMW specs show 18.7.
    • EPA roll-down coefficients
    • EPA lists the battery range as 72 miles, speed unknown
    It turns out that 'mi/kWhr' is built into the car displays so:
    [​IMG]
    mph(kph) mi(km)/kwHr eMPG Route Comments
    1 20(32) 9.3(14.9) 181.1 10 mi loop 9.0 expected
    2 30(48) 7.5(12) 146.2 10 mi loop 8.1 expected
    3 39.1(62.5) 5.8(9.3) 113.1 10 mi loop 6.8 expected
    4 52.6(84.2) 5.1(8.2) 99.5 Lacy Springs - DQ 5.5 expected

    mph(kph) MPG Route Comments
    1 55(88) 44.5 Bridgeport TN - HSV pump
    2 65(105) 40.5 Knoxville TN - Cleveland TN pump

    Hill climb and descent, 525 ft (160 m) @20 mph, 8% grade:
    up/down starting SOC% ending SOC% mi(km)/kWhr
    1 up 50.5% 46.0% 1.7(2.7)
    2 down 46.0% 48.5% +99.9(+160)

    The performance data suggests there may be an alignment problem. The low-speed was better than expected suggesting a lower electrical overhead. But as the slow speeds increased, the error went the wrong way. But upon reaching higher speeds, it started approaching the expected value.
    [​IMG]

    The vehicle history reports one tire replaced early. The driver side tire was not and I found the inner tread is down to the wear bars. I will get with Firestone and see if they will sell me a 'life-time alignment' on the car and perhaps discount from the 03 Prius that we no longer own. Then I'll head over to BMW later this week to see if they will do any warranty coverage on the bad tire.

    Bob Wilson

    ps.
    . . . trying to point Bob towards used Leafs since they have such crappy resale value. But alas, they're pure BEVs and have no engine... so that doesn't work for everyone.

    Fair enough as I did test drive a Leaf. It is a nice urban car but my hard requirement, 120 miles to Nashville without stopping, made the Leaf impractical.

    My normal commute is 10 miles and in the BMW i3-REx, it takes about 10% of traction battery capacity. This morning I left with 100% and arrived at 90%.

    I'm also finding that I am starting to drive more at the 'head of the pack.' I have the power and regen is very effective in preserving energy. It is getting a little competitive out there and I'm a player.

    With free public chargers, I begin to feel like Jonathan Livingston Seagull. I just drove from one lunch place with a high capacity charger to Whole Foods because they have a tastee double espresso $2. I also plugged in the i3 when I got there not because I had to but because I could.

    Resetting the trip meter, I'd driven 85 miles, all electric, using public chargers and topping off at home on a 10A, L1 charger. Started the day with 100% SOC and down about 8% driving my usual Prius route and style. The only curious pattern is the automatic cruise control yesterday and today did not work initially. It worked in 'fixed' speed mode but in about 3-5 miles, it would work in automatic cruise control mode ... hummmm.

    Guess I should show what it looks like:
    [​IMG]
    Gettin' free electrons in a parking space near the shops. But the building behind charged $2.50 for a glass of club soda that is free anywhere else.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #49 bwilson4web, May 30, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2016
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  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    While I would totally go with the 'patch' you used to get European spec charge sustaining, it can't be completely eliminated as not having some unattended consequences, specially if it is third party. Is it possible for you to reflash the ECU back to factory and back again to check if it is responsible for the cruise control behavior?
     
  11. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    looking good! funny how free energy makes us wild and crazy guys.:p
     
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  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    My understanding is the 'coding' is reversible but the car is getting the wheels aligned so it will take a while to test. Since I've figured out how to trigger the failure at will, I can quickly rule it in or out.

    BTW, here is the initial alignment test:
    [​IMG]
    The service tech thinks rotating the tires will give another 10,000 miles. I disagree but will wait for Alabama registration before ordering the replacements. This will be 'good enough' for now. Their estimate is $900 for the tires and I think that is reasonable ... this year.

    On way to dealer, got a call that they have to keep the car through Monday because 'we have to replace the rear tires.' I told them to order the front tires and we'll make them all new rubber.

    Bob Wilson

    It is Friday night and I already miss my BMW i3. Sure, the Gen-3 Prius is in the driveway and I have chores to run tomorrow but I LIKE my BMW i3.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  13. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    If you have bad luck and BMW continues their incompetence with i3 replacement part logistics/supply chain, you may encounter it spending a lot of time (days, possibly weeks at a time) at the "spa".
     
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I was expecting a tire replacement delay but on my schedule without holding the car. My plan was to order the tires in a couple of weeks after the registration was done and then bring the car in. The 'surprise' was the 2PM call that the rear tires had to be replaced when at 9AM the service tech (a 'secretary') reported they could be rotated.

    The real disappointment was having the service tech at the Charlotte BMW dealership lie to me "there is 8 mm of tread depth." When I saw the tires, I knew he'd lied which means I could not trust anything he reported. But learning the manufacturers warranty still applied in Huntsville softened 'the sting.'

    These two BMW service centers are not alone as two weeks earlier I let the local Toyota Service Center replace a burnt out head light and change the oil. I was there at 7:00 AM when they opened yet it took most of the day and the standard Toyota practice:
    1. Called asking to add $40 cabin air filter change. (there will always be a call!)
    2. Added an extra quart of oil.
    3. Let the air out of tires and reset tire pressure sensor. (left it that way for next service)
    I had ordered a pair of replacement tires to drop ship to Firestone and expected them by the end of the week. So I left the tires at 'Toyota pressure' and drove that way for the rest of the week since I knew Firestone would do the same. The ride did not improve as much as the car no longer coasted worth a dang.

    I left the car at Firestone Friday evening but when I walked the dogs over Saturday morning, they said it would not be ready until that afternoon. Once it was ready, I borrowed their air hose to fully inflate the tires and reset the tire pressure level. Gosh the Prius rolls easy with fully inflated tires.

    I'm not blaming the two BMW service centers any more or less than the local Toyota or Firestone service centers. Rest assured, I won't take my repeat business to the Charlotte BMW dealership and I'll trust them all as much as the Charlotte liar.

    If you want the job done right and on time, do it yourself!

    Bob Wilson

    Well it is Wednesday afternoon and they are still fiddlin' with it. When they told me the vehicle warranty was to 2019, I didn't realize a year of it would be in the shop.

    Actually I suspect the first owner didn't really keep the car current and part of the extended stay is catching up on software upgrades and a curious 'motor mount bolt' (both electric and engine) issue. It seems there have been a rash of broken motor mount bolts described: BMW i3 Forum • View topic - Engine mount broken

    This is unfortunately a known issue, although usually it is caused by someone accelerating while one wheel comes off the ground-such as going over a pothole or speed bump, turning over a large lip, etc. The one wheel spins to max speed almost instantly, then when it touches down again all that force causes the drivetrain to rock to it's max position. If this is done repeatedly or in a severe enough manner, it causes one or both of the drivetrain mounting bolts to shear, allowing the drivetrain to move too far and causing damage to other parts around the drivetrain such as A/C lines, wires or modules.

    I'm remembering the 'brake pause' problem we had with the early Gen-3 Prius and began to wonder if that might have happened to some of the Prius community.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    once you go german, you always come back. but i'm sure the overall experience will far outweigh the shop time. :cool:
     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I'm already planning my next set of benchmarks. First the 20, 30, and 40 mph tests. Then there is the overhead test.

    I've also got a cross country test drive to Tunica the 19th.

    Bob Wilson
     
  17. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I've wanted to compare the BMW i3-REx, Volt, and PiP but felt I wasn't qualified. Fortunately, someone else did:
    BMW i3 range Extender Vauxhall Ampera Positiv Toyota Prius Plug-in
    1 On the road price/total as tested (including govt grant) £28830/£35370 £28750/£29745 £28245/£30240
    2 Residual value (after 3yrs/36000) £9860/34.2% £9833/34.2% £10564/37.4%
    3 Depreciation £18970 £18918 £17681
    4 Annual tax liability std/higher rate £338/£676 £337/£674 £332/£664
    5 Annual fuel cost (12k/20k miles) £1089/£1814 £989/£1649 £1402/£2337
    6 Ins. group/quote/road tax band/cost 21/£383/A/£0 20/£459/A/£0 16/£413/A/£0
    7 Cost of 1st/2nd/3rd service £375 (5yrs/60k) £115/£277/£115 £119/£189/£119
    8
    9 Length/wheelbase 3999/2570mm 4514/2685mm 4480/2700mm
    10 Height/width 1578/1775mm 1439/1787mm 1490/1745mm
    11 Drivetrain Electric motor/2cyl in-line Electric motor/4cyl in-line 4cyl in-line/electric motor
    12 Generator/engine capacity 647cc 1398cc 1798cc
    13 Peak power/revs 168/0 bhp/rpm 148/5000 bhp/rpm 132/5200 bhp/rpm
    14 Peak torque/revs 250/0 Nm/rpm 370/250 Nm/rpm 142/4400 Nm/rpm
    15 Transmission Single speed auto/rwd Single speed auto/fwd CVT auto/fwd
    16 Fuel tank capacity/spare wheel 9 litres/repair kit 35 litres/repair kit 45 litres/repair kit
    17 Boot capacity (seats up/down) 260/1100 litres 300/1005 litres 443/1120 litres
    18 Kerbweight/payload/towing weight 1315/415kg 1732/268kg 1450/390kg
    19 Turning circle/drag coefficient 9.9 metres/0.29Cd 10.9 metres/0.28Cd 11.0 metres/0.25Cd
    20 Basic warranty (miles)/recovery 4yrs (50000)/3yrs 3yrs (60000)/1yr 5yrs (100000)/1yr
    21 Service intervals/UK dealers Variable/44 20k miles (1yr)/24 10k miles (1yr)/184
    22 Driver Power manufacturer/dealer pos 15th/24th 26th/18th 9th/3rd
    23 Euro NCAP: Adult/child/ped./stars 86/81/57/4 85/78/41/5 88/82/68/5
    24
    25 0-60/30-70mph 7.2/6.5 secs 9.4/8.2 secs 10.4/10.4 secs
    26 30-50/50-70mph 2.3/4.2 secs 3.4/5.5 secs 4.0/6.3 secs
    27 Top speed 93mph 100mph 112mph
    28 Braking 70-0/60-0/30-0mph 52.9/38.3/9.5m 50.3/35.7/9.2m 52.4/36.7/9.9m
    29 Noise 30/70mph 64/73dB 57/68dB 60/72dB
    30 Overall Auto Express economy 65.7mpg/14.5mpl 72.3mpg/15.9mpl 51.0mpg/11.2mpl
    31 Govt combined economy 470.8mpg 235.4mpg 134.5mpg
    32 Govt combined economy 103.6mpl 51.8mpl 29.6mpl
    33 Actual/claimed CO2/tax bracket 99/13g/km/5% 90/27g/km/5% 128/49g/km/5%
    34
    35 Airbags/Isofix/park sensors/camera Six/yes/£790/£790 Eight/yes/yes/yes Seven/yes/no/yes
    36 Climate control/leather/heated seats Yes/£2000/£260 Yes/yes/yes Yes/£1500/yes
    37 Met paint/adaptive LEDs/keyless go £530/£710/yes £525/no/yes £495/yes/yes
    38 Sat-nav/USB/DAB radio/Bluetooth Yes/yes/yes/yes No/yes/yes/yes Yes/yes/no/yes
    39 Stability/cruise control Yes/yes Yes/yes Yes/yes

    • Length/wheelbase - the smallest means it can park in more places and zip around the city more easily.
    • Height - this means we sit higher to see over the roofs of other cars and down to the front to gauge parking. However, it can have more high-speed drag if one is spending too much time on the highway.
    • Generator/engine capacity - the smaller engine weights less and is right sized for level cruise. Higher power should ALWAYS come from the traction battery for limited durations such as climbing a hill. Furthermore, hill climbs should always be at the same speed as semi-trailer trucks.
    • Peak torque/revs - should always be at speed zero especially when towing.
    • Kerbweight/payload/towing weight - lighter body car means more available for stuff.
    • Turning circle/drag coefficient - smaller is better for city driving. The Cd is only important for highway driving and that is NOT what this car will be doing a lot of.
    • Basic warranty (miles)/recovery - USA is 4 years and my used BMW warranty extends to 2019!
    • 0-60/30-70mph - time for a car that can 'play with the big boys' and reflective of the higher power-to-weight ratio.
    • 30-50/50-70mph - no slouch when having to pass cars on two-lane highways. Less having to time everything just right.
    • Govt combined economy - pretty much twice what everything else has!
    Bob Wilson
     
    #58 bwilson4web, Jun 9, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
  19. DonDNH

    DonDNH Senior Member

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    Article in this morning's newspaper: from AP -

    Los Angles police force to add 100 BMW i3 to their electric car fleet. The cars are to be used for non-patrol purposes such as supervisors and civilian work force.
     
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    In their testing, they found it would not charge at 7.5 kWh so they are replacing the power electronics module (aka., Prius inverter.) Should be ready Monday. <SIGH>

    Bob Wilson
     
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