Why Toyota is not selling electric cars

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by schja01, Mar 6, 2019.

  1. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    That is what my wife is getting, except instead of a Model 3 it will be a Model Y
     
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  2. Washingtonian

    Washingtonian Active Member

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    I would think about the symptoms of a degraded battery. One would be, once it is charged it would not hold that charge for a long period of time. Last year, when I knew I would be on travel for two months, I fully charged the Prime, took the mileage available reading from the HUD (something like 26.2 miles) and parked it in my garage for two months. When I returned the mileage available was exactly the same, which told me that my battery had not degraded. Then I learned from this forum that one thing that degrades the battery is to leave it fully charged for a long period of time. So now I discharge it before I park it for a month or so. But if, sometime in the future I feel my battery has degraded, that is how I will test it.
     
  3. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Two problems. One, I will not likely to have an opportunity to leave a car undriven for two months or not even two days. Two, I thought PRIME's GOM is based on past performance, not based on the current state of battery? If you leave the car for two months undriven, wouldn't it just display what it last remembered before you parked car regardless of the current SOC? As I said, I can not test this at my house on my PRIME.
     
    #283 Salamander_King, Mar 20, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  4. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    And I guess she did not drive it either.
    (people swoon over that $59 touch screen and the lack of actual knobs and switches for basic functions...:whistle:)

    Tesla is the only EV manufacturer that does NOT have Blended Brakes.

    All other Hybrid, PHEV and EV's have Regen when you use the brake pedal.
    That Brake Pedal is an old school 'Friction Only Brake Pedal' in a Tesla.
    Tesla DEMANDS that a drivers ADOPT a '1 Pedal' style of driving, if they want regen.
    There is a 'minimum Regen' setting, but then you just make heat and use up the brakes when stopping.

    Was Blended Brakes too high tech for them?

    This is not mentioned in the swooning reviews and articles about Tesla.

    Some people like micro-managing the Go Pedal for the entire trip.
    Some people like to 'Coast' when off the Go Pedal, and like using a separate Stop Pedal.

    You don't get to coast with a Tesla, unless you manage it.
     
  5. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    This can vary widely from manufacturer to manufacturer.
    I believe it is more common now for EVs to show the rated mileage IF there is a separate reading to see estimated range (which does take into account driving habits/environment).
    In the Tesla, you can have the display for range show as a percentage or mileage. Quite a few people prefer the percentage. I am not sure if the Prime has that option.

    The loss of range after sitting, does not typically mean battery degradation. That might prove an interesting data point, but has a number of other possible causes.
    If a battery truly degrades, it can’t be charged as fully as it had been. So it your max range went from 26 miles, sat for a while, but you recharge it again to 26 miles, the battery didn’t degrade.
     
  6. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    > Li-ion batteries have very little self-discharge, regardless of their state of health.

    >> If you RTFM, you will see it is recommends long term storage with the HV pack at < 50% SOC.

    This is true for all Li-ion powered devices. You aren't doing it any favors topping it up and leaving it for months, regardless of the device.
     
  7. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

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    Indeed she hasn’t. I’m only now teaching her to drive, but the only thing that matters is style and visual design, right?

    No, I’m exaggerating, of course, and I confess I’m not a huge fan of the screen visually-speaking either, but a lot of other things about the Model 3, in my view, easily compensate for that. It might also be ultimately better in terms of reducing distraction — “might”; I’d have to just drive one for a few days to tell for sure.
     
    #287 mr88cet, Mar 20, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  8. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Sorry, for not being more specific. I was talking about PRIME and only about PRIME, for that is the only PHEV I have owned to date. I have edited my comment to reflect this fact.
     
  9. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    No apologies necessary, I am the one that wasn’t clear.
    I wanted to add my experiences and knowledge with the hope it would add insight.
    However, I also wanted to be clear that because this varies between manufacturers, some of it may not apply.
    The degradation and reading of mileage upon a full charge should apply regardless of manufacturer.

    The only exceptions would be if a manufacturer ‘pegged’ the range reading, such that it always registered therated range, or if the manufacturer dipped into the unused portion of the battery pack to maintain full range as the batteries degrade.
    I am not aware of anyone that does either. However, if anyone is going to, my bet would be on VW:ROFLMAO:
     
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  10. schja01

    schja01 One of very few in Chicagoland

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    I drove my friends Tesla Model S 60D AWD (Not P) and when I let up on the accelerator
    it decelerated at least 2x/3x more aggressively than my Prime. I've got to believe
    there is some Regen going on.
     
    #290 schja01, Mar 20, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  11. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    Yes, that was full available Regen from letting up on the Go Pedal.

    That is the Tesla model.
    You must drive it '1 Pedal Style' to get regen.

    You can configure Regen to 'Low',
    and then you get a semblance of 'coast' when off the Go Pedal,
    but any braking done with the Brake Pedal is all friction brakes with no additional regen.

    They don't have the technology of a Blended Brakes.
     
  12. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

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    Lots! They call that “normal” mode regen, but you can less-aggressive braking too (I forget what they call that mode off the top of my head).
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Which is why I have interest in VW's BEV progress. The ID hatchback that will be available in Europe later this year is built on a platform dedicated for BEVs, and other models using it are already planned.

    Neither do locomotives and commuter trains.

    Tesla doesn't have them because of the development cost. How long did it take Toyota to get right? The mid-cycle refresh of the gen2 Prius, the gen3? The blended brakes on my 2005 were definitely quirky in comparison to the friction brakes everybody was use too.

    Then once use to one pedal driving, many prefer it. Tesla also uses paddle shifters for controlling regen, so it isn't really one pedal control of regen. I haven't driven a Tesla, but regularly use the paddle shifters on the Camry for controlling acceleration on down slopes. For those coming from a non-hybrid, and many have, one pedal driving could seem no different than using different gears of the transmission for controlling the car

    So why risk potential reliability issues in the braking system when the KISS solution of separate controls for regen and friction braking will work just fine for many?
     
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  14. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    1.???? We are talking about modern cars here.
    Regen Braking is the heart and soul of what makes Hybrids, PHEV's and EV's so efficient.
    It's common tech these days! You don't make waste heat at the brake discs! You send it to the HV pack.
    (btw, trains have 3 slow down systems that I know of, engine powered braking, motor power to heat banks and good ol'Friction Brakes.)

    2.Say What? A $120k for a maxed out Tesla Model X,, and they couldn't afford to offer Blended Brakes?

    3.So you are saying Blended Brakes are a problem on Prii?
    They seem fine on mine. My Prius and my BEV may never need brake pads!

    4.Many do like 1 Pedal Style Driving. Many don't.
    But with a Tesla you don't have the option, (unless you pick the No Regen option.)
    All other Hybrid, PHEV and EV manufacturers give you the the option of Normal Style Driving with Blended Brakes. It can't be that difficult nor expensive.

    5.Maybe you should drive one before making these statements. (as Tesla apologist you really should know more about how they operate.)

    6.KISS? In a Tesla? You have to be kidding....
    Maybe you're right. Blended Brakes are just too high tech for Tesla of offer as a Normal Driving Style option..:whistle:
     
  15. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Actually, Tesla does not have paddle shifters. I agree with everything else you mentioned though :)
     
  16. bb4srv

    bb4srv Member

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    After driving the Model 3 for around 600kms, the TSLA 1-pedal is fantastic and feels natural. The more you press the Accelerator the faster it goes; the more you let off the Accelerator the faster it comes to a grinding stop. When you let off the Accelerator the brake light will also light up depending on the rate of deceleration. However, you will need to use the friction brake from around 5km/hr to fully stop. This system is intuitive to me that I am capturing 100% of the regen. Whereas, the blended brakes you don't really know whether it's friction or regen (unless you use the OBD2 monitoring app).

    You can coast with Model 3, there is a thin Power/Regen bar right below the speed meter, albeit thin and not very noticeable, the car will be coasting if the "bar" is a thin line (neither power or regen).

    I also noticed during emergency braking, the regen bar also turns green when I was using the friction brake. So in that situation, I presume both regen and friction brake were utilized.

    The only other concern I may have with 1-Pedal is muscle memory. In emergency braking, the response from Accelerator to Brake may potentially be slower. But to 1-Pedal defense, this loss in reaction time may be gain from the immediate slow down once the Accelerator is let off.
     
    #296 bb4srv, Mar 20, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
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  17. bruceha_2000

    bruceha_2000 Senior Member

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    I would not like 1 pedal driving. There are losses running electricity to and from the battery. I miss the EASY glide "feature" (probably not even an intended design) of the Gen II. Can't glide my daughter's 2010, can't glide my Prime. I've get several places where I could go speed limit for a mile using NO gas and NO electricity because the slope is "just right". One pedal driving would mean using "fuel" to maintain speed.
     
  18. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    but not fossil fuel
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    A quick search left me with an impression that they did. Can the level of regen be quickly changed through a shifter or other input?
    If you liked the glide ability of the gen2 Prius, you would probably like one pedal driving. The ease of doing so will depend on make and model, but there is a glide portion between applying motor power and regen braking on cars that are one pedal driving. In other words, one pedal driving is how the gen2 Prius gas pedal work, but with more braking beyond that to simulate automatic transmission drag.

    Regenerative braking is not new. The first electric version appeared on trains in the 1930's. The first car was an AMC concept from 1967. Without the energy capture, it's called dynamic braking, and has been used regularly on trains for decades. No blended brakes on them.

    One pedal driving EVs predate Tesla.

    The heart and soul of hybrids is an efficient ICE drive train sized for the car. One consumers would find unacceptable without the electric motor assist. Once you have the motor and battery, might as well use regenerative braking, but the ability to shut off the ICE when not needed does more to save fuel.

    Tesla has no where near the capital of the estabilshed car companies for R&D. Having acceleration and regen braking controlled through one pedal, and friction brakes through another was an already established technology. It is actually closer to how people drive an automatic step transmission ICE car. Lift off the accelerator, and engine braking starts slowing the car. Want more engine braking, use a lower gear, and the friction brakes to slow down at a faster rate and to completely stop the car. The user could end up not making full use of regen, but that can also happen with blended brakes.

    Having blended brakes work, and having them be acceptable to the public is two different things. The switch between regen and friction could noticable at times with early hybrids, which defeated the purpose of having the blended brakes. The non-simple part of blended brakes is in the software.
     
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  20. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    >Nope. You must poke around in the configuration pages for 'Low Regen', which is 'light regen and all Friction Braking'.

    >> Poor Tesla couldn't afford to offer built-in Blended Brakes,,, although every other Hybrid, PHEV and EV manufacturer has it,,
    and now Forces a driver to Adopt the 1 Pedal style, or have very minimal regen and use up the Friction Brakes.
    That's your apology for this?

    I realize some people love that style.
    But what about those that don't want it and like to drive multiple cars the same way?
     
    #300 Bill Norton, Mar 21, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
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