Why Toyota is not selling electric cars

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by schja01, Mar 6, 2019.

  1. schja01

    schja01 One of very few in Chicagoland

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    I would think one pedal driving would be confusing if you are in a multiple car family. I know I would find it possibly dangerous when switching between vehicles and (erroneously) expecting the ICE to slow aggressively when I let up on the accelerator and it doesn't.
     
  2. triggerhappy007

    triggerhappy007 Active Member

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    I think Nissan did a great job on their e-Pedal. Default is off. If you're the only driver, you can set it to always on. It has its own toggle switch. I don't like to use it in all situations so a toggle switch is a good idea.
     
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  3. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Yes, it can be switched to "low" through the onscreen settings. Not as convenient as paddle shifters, but the ability is there.

    I'm surprised at some of the people that seem so anxious about this. It is far less of a change from say, an automatic to a manual. I don't recall anyone ever getting so concerned about two car households with an automatic and a manual shift car.

    I find it much more natural to drive this way(y)
     
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  4. schja01

    schja01 One of very few in Chicagoland

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    Good for you.
    Personally I was still grabbing for the large shifter lever of my other car(a Venza) a full 30 days after getting the Prime with it’s video game joystick shifter.
     
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    With the iBooster, newer Teslas might get blended braking, and Tesla is more than willing to update that have the hardware to have it. They just seem to prioritize Superchargers, Autopilot, and other features. Nobody has an infinite budget of resources.

    And Tesla is forcing nothing on nobody. Just because regen braking is controlled by the accelerator, doesn't mean you have to drive in a one pedal manor. Just set regen close to the typical coast/engine braking of a traditional car, and drive it like a traditional car. That doesn't maximize driving efficiency, but Toyota doesn't force people to drive in an efficient manner, why should Tesla?

    Still not good enough, Don't Buy a Tesla.

    Considering the numbers of Teslas sold in the US, and the fact that pedal driving is possible on most other BEVs and long EV range PHEVs, people getting their second BEV will likely expect one pedal driving to be the norm for their next car.
    It reminded me of the 'hard regen will increase road rage/is dangerous thread'. Let's ignore the fact that is possible to rapidly decelerate a manual or step automatic by downshifting without the brake lights coming on at all, and get our undies in a bunch over the new and scary BEVs. People are lazy and complacent, that's why they don't read the owner's manual, but past drivers have always had to adapt to new technology.

    Cries against one pedal driving and no different than the ones against power steering, hydraulic brakes, pneumatic tires, and changing the gear order on the automatic shifter. The reason hybrids can appear to operate just like a traditional car today is because who bought the earlier ones that didn't. Don't like it, don't buy it. If the majority agrees with you then market forces will push whatever the irksome technology is to the dust bin. Otherwise, you might have to learn doing things in a new way.

    Whatever the reasons for Tesla to just do one pedal; cost, more important features, or just because they think it is superior, it isn't a sign of technology deficiency. Claiming otherwise is like claiming Toyota can't do BEVs because of some technological lack.

    Multiple times during the two years I had the Prius SKS, I was puzzled when my locked house door simply didn't open for me.

    No two car models are going to operate or behave in the same way. I've read reviews of automatics with more gears hunting for the right one at times. Never experienced it in the Sonic with 6 speeds. Now I do in the Camry on the steep hills of my commute. If it bugs me, I just set the gear to 5th.

    I one pedal drove that gen2 Prius to the extent it was capable of, so see myself preferring it in a BEV. there will be adjustment, but I see it being less of an issue than adjusting between a Taurus or Prius and a Ranger, which I have had to do.
     
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  6. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

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    FWIW, the gen-2 LEAF has its E-pedal feature, where (if you turn it on) it will bring the car to a complete stop when you take your foot off the accelerator. I can imagine this would be great for stop&go traffic (if you don’t use their equivalent of Toyota’s TACC). Teslas in “normal” mode slow down a lot, but don’t completely stop.
     
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  7. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    While perfectly sensible, that just jacks up shopper selection frustrations because there aren't that many EVs around to begin with. When you can easily eliminate the Teslas for x, the VWs and Nissans for y and the Hyundais and BMWs for z without even making it to a showroom, it's a downer.

    I love the idea of driving electric, but not enough that I'm willing to buy in when it is still a bleeding edge, limited choice, premium priced adventure. I'm going to need to see a lot more variety on the market. And I'm patient enough that I can cheerfully wear out a couple more ICE cars while the industry ramps up.
     
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The hybrid market was the same way. Used to be that if you wanted the highest efficiency possible, the Prius was really only choice. The Civic was abusing the battery. The Insight did better, but had only two seats along with battery issues. The Insight2 was much better in reliability, but was quickly outclassed by the gen3 Prius. The gen2 Fusion and C-max fudged their EPA numbers.

    Now there is at least a half dozen hybrid models that have a combined EPA of 45mpg better, and seem to be getting that for most owners. Some are even midsize or larger sedans did didn't sacrifice trunk space. It only took, what, 20 years since the introduction of the Prius in Japan.

    Considering how new they are in relation, plug ins have a better selection, and better adoption rate. Unfortunately for North America, we aren't going to be a primary market for BEVs that aren't Tesla in the near future.
     
  9. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    makes sense though. convert the rest of the world, and we'll eventually follow
     
  10. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    That is one opinion.

    I, for one, am not buying another new Gasser.:confused:

    And I'm not buying a +$50 Tesla Sedan. Cheaper ones are RWD...
    (I'm sure their new Model Y, which is a hatchback, will be right on schedule, any day now.....:rolleyes:).

    I want a BEV FWD Hatchback with some high tech AP-like features, at an affordable price.
    That means, Kia, Hyundai, Nissan (if they get proper TMS) or maybe some of the many Chinese BEV's we read about, if they ever get imported.
    I like the Bolt a lot but it doesn't offer Adaptive Cruise.
    Come on GM! You have the only true hands-free AP system. Supercruise is on some Caddy products.

    Toyota is not even in the game, for some reason.....:( (back to the thread title!!!)(y)
     
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  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Hyundai/Kia are limited by battery supply. There are 124 Ioniq Electrics listed on Cars.com at this time for the nation.

    The first VWs using the BEV platform will be available in Europe at the end of the year. The US won't see any until 2021/22 maybe a few in at the end of 2020. There will be a Porsche, and perhaps an Audi, before then, but at Tesla prices.

    Bolt is on my shortlist, but I suspect GM sees it as a stop gap until they get their own BEV platform out; the battery and drivetrain of the Bolt is all LG Chem. Supercruise sounds to be the superior system, but it only works on roads mapped out by GM. It might be less available than Superchargers.

    Some Chinese imports would be nice to shake up the established manufacturers some more, but will they be competitive after meeting the local regulations? They, along with Tesla and Nissan, are probably best set in terms of battery supply for the near future.

    TMS aside, what is Nissan planning for BEVs. It was Ghosen and Renault that were pushing BEVs. Will Nissan move closer to FCEVs as the partnership moves apart?

    Because of US fuel prices, and battery supplies, most will view this market as secondary at best, and that is because of CARB requirements. See the Outlander PHEV global rollout. North America was also last for the Ioniq Electric release among the major markets.
     
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  12. bruceha_2000

    bruceha_2000 Senior Member

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    I have that problem with the tractor I bought last summer. It is a hydrostat so no shifting but even though I've not owned a manual transmission car since 1995, somehow having the loader control at my right hand hauled out old habits! Just seems like I should be doing something with it when I change from forward to backward. I will learn eventually. The only reason to push in the clutch is to start the engine or go from RWD to AWD and back.

    Wouldn't that be sweet! Garden tractor - no key, push button start, hydrostat transmission. Prius - fob, push button start. Tractor - key, twist to start. How old school!

    I do think that Toyota will eventually come up with BEVs though they surely won't be the leaders or even the second wave. But I trust they will have a reliable and more than competitive product when they do.
     
  13. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    I want the opposite of e-pedal or one-pedal driving. I want a situation where releasing the accelerator results in coasting - no regenerative braking until I press the brake pedal.
     
  14. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Apparently that's blended brakes. I didn't realize that Tesla didn't offer them until I read it in this thread. I've never driven a Tesla but I don't think I would enjoy the 1-pedal deal either.
     
  15. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    That’ll be Toyota’s AGC or Auto Glide Control. It’s activated in Eco mode on the Camry.
     
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The concept is not as radical as it may appear.
    When your foot comes off the accelerator in any car, it starts to slow down. The level of deceleration varies between models and what gear it is in, but all cars experience slowing from the energy loss from spinning the the transmission and engine while coasting in gear.

    Hybrid design worked hard to minimize the drive line losses that increase that coasting deceleration rate to improve overall efficiency. Toyota and others opted to have a slight amount of regen braking to come on when the driver takes their foot off the gas, in order to have the experience be close to what they are use too.

    All one pedal driving means is that the foot off the accelerator regen is heavy enough to bring the car to, or near, a complete stop. In the cars I know that have one pedal driving, that deceleration rate can be varied. To the driver's perspective, driving between the different rates is like driving with the transmission in different gears. Foot off accelerator means faster deceleration when in lower gears, like using heavier regen with a one pedal car, except the traditional car never applied the brake lights during heavier downshifted braking.

    The one thing that requires adaption with one pedal driving is that the level of regen braking can be controlled through the accelerator. It sounds like a foreign concept, but you are already modulating the amount of pressure applied to the accelerator to control speed for changes in traffic and road incline. One pedal driving lets you control the motor input in addition to the output you are familiar with doing now.

    It should also allow you to set the motor output and input to zero, which would be like shifting a traditional car to neutral. That opens up techniques for improving your efficiency. Don't know about the Prius c, but this was possible in a gen2 Prius.

    A person can simply not like it, and that's fine. Things like braking and steering can feel different between cars which have the same system on paper, and not choosing a car because you didn't like the feel of it was fine before one pedal driving came along. If you don't like it, and do get stuck driving a car with it, set the regen to the minimum, and just drive it like a traditional car, using the friction brakes for most of the stopping.
    Or get an EV1.
     
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  17. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Yeah, but it's hard to hit that point.

    Correct.

    The Prime has regular, B-mode and neutral. I find driving in B mode to be very uncomfortable. Constantly shifting to neutral is annoying.
     
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  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Like my comment about braking feel, the ease of hitting this midpoint between acceleration and deceleration will vary between models.

    My understanding is that it got harder in Prius generations after my 2005.
     
  19. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    My previous comment was too brief to provide appropriate detail, you have my apologies.

    I picked up on that detail, and thus feel sufficiently armed should they only have a car like this available next time I hit the Hertz counter. I tolerate a variety of features in lots of rental cars anyway, and I rent pretty frequently.

    I can approximate the effect by putting my current Prius into B mode. And it's not a terrible way to get around, with the extra drag from lifting the throttle. I want to be clear- in the Prius context, I am not bothered by the extra noise in B mode, and I realize it wouldn't be there in a full EV anyway. And I certainly recognize the necessity and utility of such a mode for mountain roads. That, in and of itself isn't the problem for me.

    I love how Toyota provided a (fake) gated shifter assembly to let me make this driving style selection on the fly. However the Tesla in particular isn't going to have that. Or a rotary encoder knob or thumbwheel I can twist to vary the regen. Or a separate handle to pull or pedal to push for momentary bonus regen. That's the specific bit that puts me off.
     
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    My history:
    1. Manual drive Camry - hold the clutch down to coast(*). Use early braking to reduce the number of full stops.
    2. Gen-1 Prius - shift into "N" to coast(*) and adapt to the 'funny' braking below 5 mph.
    3. Gen-3 Prius - shift into "N" to coast and braking more uniform. Use "N" to defeat creep.
    4. Gen-4.5 Prime - shift into "N" to coast and use dynamic cruise control to bring car to a stop and eliminate the hated creep. Dynamic cruise control means often driving distances with feet flat on the floor but the low limit, 28 mph, is too high because it won't work in 25 mph school zones.
    5. BMW i3-REx - shift into "N" to coast. Dynamic cruise control down to 20 mph but there are optical conditions like some shadows, some over passes at night, and directly into sun that it goes offline. Aggressive regeneration makes one-pedal driving fun.
    Hopefully in a week or so I'll have a Standard Range Model 3. I don't know if shifting into "N" works for gliding. If the regen is strong enough, I won't really care about a fractional loss from friction braking. Implied is during braking the regeneration is not adjusted to maximize energy saving ... but given how many years including the Camry, my driving style minimizes braking.

    I'm not going to cast stones at Toyota as their hybrids have been exceptionally efficient both engine and transmission. They could have easily been faster acceleration in the 0-40 mph range but adequate for my needs. The one-way clutch in the Prime remains a brilliant solution. But technology has moved on:
    • Replacing Prime with Standard Range Model 3
    • Keeping BMW i3-REx as backup to Model 3
    Toyota came out with the new Supra, good on them but so boring compared to the Tesla. If Tesla begins selling their EVs in Japan, I suspect Toyota, Honda, and Mazda might readdress previous design decisions. A Tesla 'kei' car would be very interesting.

    Late addition:


    Bob Wilson

    * - Shifting into "N" should not be done if driving a police officer around in the car. Nor should you exceed the speed limit.
     
    #320 bwilson4web, Mar 24, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
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