Why would anyone Own a Prius

I was actually talking to my home inspector about this the other day. What we need to do apparently is wait for light fixtures that are designed specifically for LED as opposed to retrofitting our existing fixtures with LED bulbs...he says give it another year or so and we'll start seeing them in the US.

Those are my issues with CFL as well...

Theres a difference between "those techs are flowing downhill quickly" and "almost every other new luxury car has them". The fact is the feature is still very rare, and nonexistant below $50k.

Its all about demographics...they've done studies to determine how many models with the full tech they'd sell and have determined its not worth it.

How many Fives with ATP do you think they sell? I rarely see a Five, and how many of those I do see have ATP? Its a VERY small % of Prius sales.

 

Well, didn't you mention that Lincolns have similar techs? Didn't you also quote some vague/rare BMW 3-series fact about it also? Weren't YOU the one that pointed all the cars that have similar stuff to Prius ATP?? Or did i remember wrong? Too many pages back for me to check!

Either way, most (if not all) luxury cars in the very near future (aka next redesign) will offer similar technologies since NHTSA and Euro safety folks have already determined that these techs save lives.

The thing is...the CT is a brand new vehicle...and a vehicle that showcases Lexus hybrid technology (same as Prius is the showcase for Toyota's hybrid technology).

Fine...CT with "ATP" will be rare...but why not offer it as an option along with PCS/DRCC?? My point is that Lexus chose to offer PCS/DRCC, yet skimped on the rest of the ATP package. Those who buy CT200h with PCS/DRCC already have to buy the NAVI, leather, etc...in other words, these folks are already spending a pretty penny on a luxury car...so, why limit the package??

You keep on saying, "they"...are they saying that CT200h folks are less technologically inclined than Prius owners? They think that these folks desire less? Again, note that to get PCS/DRCC, you have already had to spend close to or over $40,000...in other words, these folks are not financially limited!

Prius ATP may be rare, but there is certainly a market for them because there are plenty of these folks on this forum!

 

I'm going to go a little off topic (I think this thread started for CT200h) ....

Was comparing base Matrix to Prius to see how long takes to recoup 'apparent' diff in purchase cost. Interesting result.

The closest Matrix I could find optioned somewhat like Prius, gives $4k diff. in price. Given FE specs, 29 MPGs should be pretty darn close to avg. vs. 49 for Pri.

So, with gas avg. $3k gallon, 4.2 cents / mile difference, it will take 95k miles to overcome that cost diff, and 83k miles to save up $3,500 IF you went with Toyota hybrid battery at today's price.

Interesting thing is the total miles to offset price and battery is 178k miles. it's interesting to me, because I read Toyota had defined lifetime of the hybrid battery about 180k miles.

Of course during that 180k miles, you get to enjoy a nicer car in the Prius as well as features not found on Matrix like smart key and push button start. But, if looking for cheap transpo, sure, look to a Hyundai Elantra or SLT.

I have not found another car that is as close to the weight (2,960 lbs vs. 3042 of Prius) and HP, 132 vs. 134 as the Matrix.

 

Personally, I would look at 2012 Ford Focus 5 dr...impressive stats! That is what I would get if Prius Five did not exist and I wanted a cheaper car. And I would get TSX Sportwagon if I went more expensive.

 

What sales price on the matrix vs Prius? I think I can have the return on investment quicker than that. Remember also that the prius will hold its value a little better. I suspect that if you take purchase price of a Prius and its value, say, 8 years later and same on the Matrix and its value 8 years later and after including this depreciation plus comparing gas prices at $3.50 (ntl average) the Prius probably will come out a good bit better.

 

You're taking everything I said out of context. I was responding to someone who said that auto parking could not be purchased on a vehicle for any price...and thats not true. Its not a common feature, but it certainly is available on a myriad of vehicles at different price points...and did not even debut on the Prius in the US.

There are certainly plenty of cars out there with these features, but its hardly "nearly all luxury cars" as you asserted.

My crystal ball is broken so I don't make statements of fact about what has not occurred yet. All I can tell you is that now, today, the CT is well equipped for its price point.

But the ATP is not a part of hybrid technology.

Becuase Toyota is a for profit company that offers options and packages that will be profitable for them. They have determined, obviously, that offering the CT with those features will drive the price to a point where it wouldn't make sense for them to offer it as a company. Toyota is a very conservative company...they don't like to build "niche" cars. They like to build cars that appeal to a wide market segment.

Um, everyone is financially limited. $40,000 is not a huge sum of money to pay for a car anymore, a mid optioned minivan or SUV costs $40,000 today. We're not talking about a $200,000 supercar, we're talking about the entry level model to the Lexus line. This is a first time luxury car purchaser (thats the target), budget is a BIG deal.

Think about it this way, the ATP features are only available on the very high end Lexus LS packages, and those cars are basically special order, so even at $70,000...people's budgets are limited by what they are capable of and what they are willing to spend. If consumers were so willing to spend whatever sum of money is necessary to buy a car with all these features...manufacturers would offer them I promise you. Its not that consumers don't want these features, its that they don't want them enough to pay for them.

I would say its 5% or less of Prius sales, and certainly not the overriding reason people buy a Prius. Its obviously the most important thing to you...but that doesn't mean its that important to everybody.

 

Again, most luxury cars in the very near future will feature these techs, either standard or optional. We're already seeing it with the Lincolns, BMWs, Prius, CT, etc. getting some form of it.

ATP is not a hybrid thing, but CT is supposed to showcase Lexus technology, as is the case with Prius.

People who go the EXTRA mile and get PCS/DRCC (along with NAVI, leather pkg, Premium pkg; all of which are required for PCS/DRCC i believe) as an option on a special order CT200h are NOT financially limited as someone who buys a base CT200h. THAT is my point. Someone who goes that far to get PCS/DRCC is someone who wants everything in their CT.

And when did i say that ATP is important to everyone??

 

And the CT features these techs, just not the LKA or parking assist.

Why would the entry level Lexus be expected to have all the features available on all Lexus vehicles? The Prius is a showcase of technology...nobody said the CT was supposed to be, nor is it marketed as such. Its marketed as sporty...and green. Thats all.

But they are financially limited. In one breath you're saying the car is too expensive, and in the other breath you're saying that the car should be more expensive with more available options. You don't make any sense.

Thats your opinion, I disagree. Apparently so do Lexus & Toyota because they offer PCS and DRCC all over the place without LKA or park assist. I personally would want the DRCC...I couldn't care less about LKA, park assist, or PCS. I don't care enough about DRCC to special order it or pay $5k for it to be bundled with a bunch of stuff I'd never use...like LKA or park assist.

In fact the ONLY product in the marketplace that bundles DRCC with LKA & park assist...be in Lexus...Toyota...Lincoln...Infiniti...whatever...is the Prius. So...consumers all over the place are buying DRCC without buying LKA or park assist...and are perfectly happy to do so.

So...I don't see a lot of evidence to back up what you are saying. I think you need to separate what is of value to you...and what is of value to everyone else.

Its all you ever talk about.

The bottom line is it takes development dollars to integrate a function into a car, and assembly tooling to prepare to build cars a certain way, and they aren't going to make those expenditures for a small number of buyers who may want those options. Toyota doesn't do business that way. Other companies do...buy their cars.

 

HS has it...and shockingly, it is a hybrid too for just a tiny bit more money.

In case you miss it, here is Lexus first statement in CT's press release:

"The new CT 200h introduces Lexus’ unique synthesis of unparalleled quality, sophistication and high technology to the premium compact segment for the first time."

As for pricing, yeah, i think that the CT pricing is a bit high. However, i find it weird that it does not have the same stuff that you find in the Prius, even when you option it out to the max. The HS, for example (or any other Lexus for that matter), has a base price and has options that increase the price some $10,000 or more for those who want everything. Same goes for your Lexus ES, right? What makes the ES (or HS, LS, GS, etc.) cool in my book is that you can get one at whichever level of luxury that you want, all depending on your pocketbook. The HS is base at $34k, and most people get one around $38k. But, for those who want more, you can get top notch technologies for $48k. My point is that, for those who want it, why not give it to them? It does not take much to integrate self-park into a system that ALREADY has NAVI for instance. How much are those bumper sonars? (The CT does not come with parking sonars to really say that is the reason for not having self-park...nor does any of these features add much weight.)

When did i say that ATP is for everyone???? Stop with the childish tactics. I like ATP...so what? Is that a crime? When did i say that everyone MUST get it?? Strange.

You say that Toyota does not do business "that" way...making technologies available for a small group of consumers. Hmmm, didn't you just post some data that Prius Five with ATP is less than 5% of Prius sales?? That is a pretty small consumer group, no??

So, why did Toyota do business "that" way for the Prius........and HS250h......and LS.......and many other options that are so rare to find in any Lexus, etc. yet they are avail if you have the cash for it?? Hmmm, who is confused now?

Why do i need to buy other companies cars when Toyota/Lexus does indeed cater to the very small group of consumers who want everything???!!!! Tell me more! My Sienna Limited with Laser cruise and powered 3rd row is very rare to find...yet, i bought one, as did a few other Sienna owners i am sure...so, why did Toyota go to such length??

I see Lexus HS250h with EVERYTHING on Autotrader and Ebay from time to time...what's up with that?!!! We know how poorly HS sales are...yet, Lexus still makes LKA, PCS/DRCC, etc. to those rare individuals who want it all in their HS for a hefty price of $48,000+!

It is funny BTW to see you talk like you're a Lexus representative...dude, get over yourself!

 

I optioned out base matrix with automatic close as possible,

it's $20,070 US, so figured $4k diff price. Make up with gas (95k mi at ~$3/gal ?)

then save up for hybrid battery, $3.5k. (83k miles).

but, nothing really compares to Prius very well.

 

Dude, you HAVE to get Prius Five with ATP!!! Wth is wrong with you??!!

(Sorry, sarcasm to Steve for saying that i force people into buying Prius with ATP.)

 

SWO3S
and Thai,

So the gripe is that CT 'ATP' does not have LKA and IPA. I think nevermind the IPA from what I've sort of heard. Do many use it? LKA? That seems like a nice feature.

Guess they need to keep price down.

 

But...the HS doesn't really have it. You can get it (I believe its like $47k MSRP, $7,000 is not a small amount of money.

However, the ATP package is only special order now for the HS, at least in my region. If you go to Lexus.com you can no longer option an HS to have the ATP.

Why would they have done that? Because people weren't buying the ATP.

I would say the car is pretty sophisticated and high technology for the price point. Notice it says in the PREMIUM COMPACT SEGMENT...not "it will have every technology we offer available".

Niether do any of Lexus' models...two different vehicles built for two different buyer groups.

They are getting away from that though. Go to lexus.com and use the build your Lexus function and see. There are one or two packages per model...and thats it.

You can't get the ATP features on ANY Lexus but the LS without special ordering. On the ES you can only get the DRCC and PCS...and I have never seen one with it.

Why not give it to them? Cost. Building all the cars according to a couple packages saves them cost, thats the bottom line.

Sure it does...its an entire computer system that doesn't already exist in the car...

The Prius is an unusual vehicle for Toyota, as we see from the membership on this forum, its a very special group of people who are unusual consumers for an auto brand. Technology is important to a lot of them, they are early adopters. Thats why they offer the ATP on the Prius IMHO. When we bought our Prius back in '04 it had SKS and HIDs and Nav, and those were unheard of features at the price point. Its kind of what makes the Prius a Prius.

As for the HS...Toyota thought the Prius owner would move up to the HS...so the same features had to be available (note they are not on the IS, ES or GS at similar price points). That didn't happen...and they have stopped offering the ATP on the HS.

As for the LS, thats an entirely different segment. They have to offer those available features on the LS to compete with the other $70k+ competitors in that segment, the S Class, 7 Series, A8, etc.

However, Lexus has always been slow to adopt technological features. The LS for instance has historically lacked a lot of bells and whistles its competitors have had.

I see Siennas with laser cruise all the time...

I've been a Lexus owner and enthusiast for almost 15 years, I know a lot about this brand and the types of vehicles they produce. I'm an automotive industry enthusiast who has done a lot of research into how car companies are run, specifically Toyota and Lexus. I used to consult with car dealerships specifically in the area of customer retention and I know a lot of people in the dealership industry. What should I do, pretend that I don't know what I'm talking about to protect your ego? And I'm the one that needs to get over myself?

I'm not the one ranting and raving because a company won't put unprofitable options on all of their models in case someone "might want them". I'm trying to explain to you why they don't do that, but you keep arguing with me. Building cars that dealers can't sell and forcing them to let them sit on their lots is a poor business strategy. Lumping options together in a couple of packages that they have focus group tested ad nauseum and they KNOW dealers can sell and leaving out features their target buyers don't want to pay for is a good business practice.

Why not build a CT200h with solid gold wheels and door handles as a $150,000 option? Hey..."someone might want it!"

Take a business 101 class.

 

Gas today is $3.60 so $6840 is cost of fuel for Prius for 95k. For the Matrix over that distance it's $15,540 using fueleconomy.gov figures.

That's $8500 more, and the hybrid battery is not meaningful here; it lasts way longer than 95k.

 

CT has a 10-way power seat

Independent rear suspension

Yamaha sway / dampers

.. and the ipod holder

 

See my bold statements...sorry, too lazy to individually quote.

 

yeah, but we have "wired management"!!!:rockon:

 

Seeing that I run a Lexus enthusiast forum...I see a lot of them. I have *never* met anyone with an ES that had DRCC. Did your friend see the DRCC for himself or was it just advertised in the eBay listing?

You're not weird, I do that all the time.

The HS is not really rare in the ATP package on the used market. They shipped a lot of them that way when they first came out. They NEVER shipped the ES with DRCC. Any one you find was ordered specifically by a buyer that way. Very rare.

Right...so is the LS and it has DRCC as an available option...as does the ES for that matter so I don't see your point.

GS & IS came out in 2006, ES and LS in 2007.

The only Lexus vehicles you can get DRCC on as an available option are the CT, the HS, the ES, the LS, the GX and the LX. Out of all of those cars the only cars you don't have to special order it on that features it on a ready-ship package is the LS600hL...and the CT!

Name some. Park-assist is the only one I can think of, aside from the availability of hybrid models. But seriously, name me some technology Lexus has pioneered.

I said nearly 15 years, its been since 1998, so thats 13 years.

And how am I blind with brand enthusiasm? My argument here is hardly pro-Lexus or pro-Toyota here. In fact, in our argument you're the pro-Lexus one from a technology perspective, not me.

If you would stop insinuating that I don't know what I'm talking about I wouldn't need to do that.

What high end options have been available for special order, for what years and which models have they been available? You say they've been available for years...so when were they first available?

Teach me.

Before 2001 Lexus didn't ship many of its high end tech options over here. The LS didn't even get a trip computer until 1998. In 2001 they shifted their philosophy somewhat when they brought the Ultra Luxury package on the LS to the market here which had the laser cruise, the power massaging rear seat, suede headliner, semi-aniline leather, air suspension, etc. The car sold well initially but in 2006, they made just over 100 UL cars...they tried creating a Custom Luxury model which had the laser cruise and trim upgrades, but no air suspension and no rear seat additions. It also sold poorly, the vast majority of sales were the Navigation/MarkLevinson car, which became the Modern Luxury package in 2004. However the other models were pretty sparse in the electronic option department.

It came to a height around 2007-2008 when they started offering much higher end electronic options in their vehicles, more packages, etc. However when you look at what is offered now you'll see they have scaled back a LOT, I'm sure due to the economy and due to their sinking IQS and reliability figures. More technology=more problems.

I'm not saying they loose money on them, I'm saying they were difficult for dealers to move...difficult to move = negotiating deals which means the dealers didn't make any money off them and didn't want them in their inventory any more. If they made tons of money on them...they'd still sell them. They have stopped selling them...ergo they did not make enough money on them for it to be worthwhile.

Thats just common sense.

As for the CT, you have no way of knowing what you might be able to special order...all we know is what is listed in the packages available online...if you looked at those packages you would think you couldn't get the ATP on the HS any longer...or the UL package on the ES any longer...but you still can. Only way to know what you may be able to special order on the CT is to see a dealer and find out.

For that matter...we don't know that you can still special order a 2011 HS with ATP or a 2011 ES with DRCC...I know you could in 2010...at least the ES...

 

Actually, the sales manager at the biggest Lexus store in Houston Texas told me that PCS/DRCC and LEDs on the CT200h are SPECIAL ORDER ONLY.

If you search on ebay, "e-carone" is a big used car dealer...and they are very accurate. The one my friend looked at had the window sticker with the options listed. It was no mistake.

Yeah, i am sure that the ES with PCS is special order...so what? So is a CT with PCS. My point all along is that if someone went that far to special order something, then Lexus has traditionally offer them everything that they can on THAT platform.

CT, HS all came out within the past year or so. GS, IS are old platforms...2006, according to you. Was PCS even avail then other than the top of the line LS?? And PCS at that time was avail only on the top notch Germans, e.g. Merc S-class or so. Then in 2007, it started to flow downward to the ES. And now that the technology is more abundant, it is flowing more and more downward to the HS and CT. I would bet that the next gen ES, GS, IS would have some sort of option for PCS/DRCC/LKA/etc.

Firsts for Lexus/Toyota: 8-speed auto, ATP in HS class, advanced PCS in LS, KDSS in a SUV (in the US), XREAS (in nonlux SUV in US), and maybe some others that i have not thought off from the top of my head. In a way, i think that Mark Levinson Reference system and the way the speakers are setup is quite original as are the twin-chamber front airbags i think. Weren't the front and side cameras on the Lexus LX a first, as least in the US?

Actually, i would bet that there were more than 100 UL/CL made because i see them on the used market often, certainly not as often as the Modern Lux pkg, but they are not that rare as you implied. And from what i can tell when i did my research on UL/CL LS430's, most folks paid MSRP...so, the dealer and Lexus made plenty of money of them! (I looked heavily into the LS UL/CL back then...almost bought one!) And as you go up higher in the food chain (such as UL/CL LS), the option to get it specific color combo became rare...you had to special order them. In addition, my dealer told me that you can special order exterior color and leather color not avail in the brochure.

I would bet that most dealers received MSRP or near MSRP deals with those HS ATP!

Yes, you can order HS with ATP in 2011...it is on their website and brochure!! Same for ES. Just like you have to special order CT with PCS/DRCC and/or LED headlights.

 

Lexus.com disagrees. Different regions though. Dealers very often know very little...or make up their own information to suit their own goals.

Go to lexus.com, build a CT and see for yourself.

Again...according to Lexus.com the CT with PCS is not special order.

Actually, its 2006 according to fact.

It might...or it may only have DRCC and PCS like the CT.

Mercedes had radar cruise and pre-collision before Lexus. Same is true of lane departure warning, DRCC.

A multitude of vehicles have had active electronic suspension systems before Lexus.

Hardly

This is one.

No.

They are absolutely that rare. I believe it was 116 UL units built in 2006.

Note I'm saying 2006 there are more ULs in general...but not built in 2006.

I OWN an LS430 UL...bought new in 2004. Of course they made money on them...they just weren't hot sellers and became less so as the years went on. We paid a LOT less than MSRP for it too.

You'd loose that bet. Lexus doesn't get near MSRP on anything anymore (except brand new models), the market is very soft. Again...I bought one 8 months ago so I know what I'm talking about. One phone call = invoice and I bought the car for $500 under, $5,000 off MSRP. You can buy a Lexus for $1,000 over invoice depending on the model, and the HS you can buy for invoice because they sell very poorly.

I have bought 4 Lexus vehicles since 1998, two LS's and two ES's. We've never paid more than $1,000 over invoice on a Lexus vehicle...and never had to try that hard to get there.

If they got "MSRP or near MSRP for every HS ATP" as you assert, that doesn't jibe with your claim that the HS sells poorly. If they got MSRP for every ATP they sold...they would still ship the HS with ATP.

Again...Business 101 my friend.

Again, Lexus, the manufacturer of the car disagrees. But, I guess they don't know as much as you either do they?