Wikipedia: Volt Displaces Prius' Fuel Efficiency Crown

On the flipside, it also ignores the electricity used to refine gasoline (which of course has always been the case, but simply hasn't been relevant until recently). Although I do suspect that ignoring the source of electricity is a more significant oversight than ignoring the energy used during refinement of gas (especially if you completely ignore it, rather than picking some poorly defined average). Regardless, both observations help highlight that the EPA numbers almost completely fail to properly represent the actual situation. And I doubt many here contest that claim.

 

I was playing devils advocate in this thread, but ... I agree with reuters that MPGe is fair. But how is 60 mpge volt more efficient than a 99 mpge leaf, Or a really a tesla rating of 135 mpge? I don't the editor will remove your correction if you just make it MPGe

 

Exponent ^^
EPA estimates 17% energy loss in petrol refinery and distribution
US national grid electric generation efficiency per EPA is 32%

So an apples to apples MPGe would show
Prius 50*0.87 = 43.5 MPGe
Volt (EV) 93*0.32 = 29.7 MPGe, and the combined MPGe would be (37*.83+29.7)/2 = 30.25 MPGe.

These numbers portray the Volt MPGe is quite a bit better light than is the actual case because electricity transmission losses of ~7% and ~10% waste of energy at the power plant have not been factored in to the calculation. Hopefully though it is obvious that crowning the Volt a fuel economy king is rubbish. Using the optimistic 30.25 MPGe places the Volt snugly in 15th place in the EPA fuel economy charts by searching for petrol cars with a combined MPG of 35 or greater.

 

I put a comment about this on the discussion page. Maybe I'll revisit this another time, once it has been hashed out there.

 

Regardless of what EPA says that's hugely disingenuous saying that the Volt gets better mileage because that number only works on short distances--really short.

Isn't it a bit like an ugly kid's mom saying that she looks prettier than the beauty queen when nobody else thinks so?

 

It is wrong because bevs like the tesla do better using the same testing methodology. I do not consider the 25 miles people have been getting in ev with the volt in winter really short. The epa figure is for 80 miles.

The epa never has considered how much energy it takes to get fuel to your car. It is very difficult to come up with a ratio between gasoline and electricity. Gasoline does not occur naturally, and although electricity does it is difficult to charge your car with it. Some may argue that using the raw energy is wrong, but it a better figure is difficult to come by. IMHO 37kwh for one gallon of gasoline favors gasoline. The number whould be lower. How much energy does it take to create gasoline. It is the scarce resource. Already there are GTL (natural Gas To Liquids) refineries, and research to use coal to create gasoline. I think the scarcity and the marginal oil sands and GTL should be the main consideration. Others think that the dirtiest least efficient oldest plants are the ones to compute electrical costs. And there is a legitamate point of view. If we used less electricity we may retire the old plants. Others may legitamately disagree, but there is no question that it is easier to add new electricity than it is to create new gasoline reserve. The other thing that is true is new electricity is much clearer and more efficient than the average. I am not trying to debate, only wish to point out the point of view. This is why Well to wheels is so difficult to determine without a ugly debate.

Not really. Its more about thinking beyond gasoline as the fuel of choice. An imperfect phev may look prettery than a ice vehilce. It is the same POV that made hybrids sell. But most see the prius as uggly, and too expensive. That is an ugly point of view.

 

The electricity used to refine gasoline probably come from petroleum as well. It is not ignored in the Well-to-Wheel analysis done by DOE.

 

Good guess. It currently reads "the most fuel-efficient car with an internal combustion engine sold in the United States, as rated by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)". My edit reads "The composite fuel economy rating is the best fuel economy score for the compact segment", which I took from a Miami Herald article.

Hopefully these changes will stick.

 

That was my point exactly too. The Tesla is the most efficient production car currently sold, and the Leaf would probably be #2.

 

Thanks. Of course the Prius Phev will oust the Volt using that wording when it is released.

 

Check out this upcoming SAE meeting in Detroit with GM big wigs / 2011 Volt section meeting.

SAE Detroit Section

"Wednesday, April 13, 2011
2011 Chevrolet Volt Section Meeting
Cobo Center- One Washington Blvd, Detroit


The 2011 Chevrolet Volt is in the vanguard of the auto industry’s shift from the petroleum-based model that has sustained it for more than 100 years, to the electrified model which many experts believe will literally propel it for another century. With its new Voltec propulsion system, GM’s pioneering extended-range electric vehicle (EREV) brings a unique approach to vehicle electrification..."

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If they limp along selling 300 units/month, wow, are they going to feel sore.... down the road. (pun intended)

 

I don't understand why. I went to truecare today clicked on the trend report. I think that there is an 8 day inventory for Volts--seriously low. This link GM’s Volt sales: No need to panic…yet - SmartPlanet says less sold in Feb than Jan. I recall production numbers for the Volt were at least 10k/year, or more than twice these per/month, what's happening to them?

 

GM is trying to get volts to be at 900 dealers lots. These help bring people in, and then they cross sell a different gm vehicle like the cruze or silverado. Some bad dealers are charging large premiums, otherwise there would be no inventory. GM says they should have production up high enough in May so that we should see them in sales figures.

 

As an outsider looking in I always thought there was a lot of paranoia about GM in the US, but seeing how GM have played the release of what should be their flagship model I'm now beginning to wonder!

This is their latest, most advanced model yet but where is it? I get the impression they never wanted to make this car and by giving it a halfhearted release I wouldn't be surprised if it is quietly dropped in three years time.

 

Its not paranoia if every one is against you ;-) Its not a flagship model. That is either the corvette or the escalade. It is a green halo model, and they are playing it a lot like toyota did at the beginning of the prius.

No they definitely want it to be a success. They need it to be if they are going to avoid paying large cafe penalties. But part of that success is pulling people in to buy cruzes and other gm vehicles. Some people seem to think that gm should be selling more volts than cruzes, which is kind of crazy if you ask me. Will the volt's second generation be as successful as the prius's second (or third in japan) generation, that is doubtful. There will be other phevs when the gen 2 comes out.

 

What a sad excuse of them to build a green car to avoid cafe penalties and to sell other models. I think they would do much in developing a car that's just great in and of itself.

I think GM would do better by trying to 2nd source the Prius. Prius is very good, but anything could use improvement.

Now, Toyota is so well postitioned with Prius and they have the corner on the market - 70% market share of hybrids with Prius alone! What are the other mfrs. waiting for? There is a chance Prius could go into short supply soon...

and no other mfr. is ready to give what customers would really want - a Prius. Not an Insight, HCH, etc...

Asking people to pay over $40k for a compact green car is insanity. After April 15th, buyers cannot take advantage of $7,500 credit unitl 2012. How it that going to help Volt sales this Summer while Prius is slaying the market?

No wonder they are blaring the horn - "conventionals catching up to hybrids (what they mean is Prius) ..... meanwhile, customers will be clamoring for Prius with gas at $4.50 / gal this year. Maybe other mfrs are afraid to take on Prius.

 

I agree. It's interesting that when the gov and the big three started working on fuel efficient cars, but apparently didn't invite Toyota in, Toyota just started its Prius, and it has made it better over time. Meanwhile the big three spent time creating pickups and SUVs and now they are just a decade late. GM simply does not have the experience with a hyper efficient vehicle and the proof of that is in the pudding.

 

8 days means pretty much no inventory... but its typical GM, they use it for PR and dont want to produce a whole lot of them because they lose money.

 

But didn't Toyota sell the original (Japan only) and classic/gen1 Prius at a massive loss to start? If I remember rightly they sold them for half the price it cost to produce but they knew they were onto a winner and the loss was an investment in the future - and how right they were.

GM (and all its many worldwide subsidiaries) decide to sell the Volt above cost. It is said ([ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt]Chevrolet Volt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]) that in Europe the Volt/Amera will cost $58,000!!! ha ha ha it will never sell more than a handful at that. You could almost buy a new Prius (£20,000/$32,000) and a new Nissan Leaf (£26,000/$42,000) for that sort of money or buy one of these and have at least $16,000 left over.

The Volt could be a seller if it cost the same as the Leaf but not when it's a third more. And that's before the madness of being a four seat car! The last four seat family car I remember was a Vauxhall Signum ([ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vauxhall_Signum]Opel Signum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]), yes another GM design, and yes it flopped badly.

I did want the Volt to succeed but the more I think about it the more I think it'll fail.