Featured Will Biden change Toyota direction?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Aug 6, 2021.

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Will Toyota change direction on EVs

Poll closed Sep 5, 2021.
  1. Yes - about time

    6 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. Maybe - waiting on Toyota

    8 vote(s)
    44.4%
  3. No - rip ICE from my cold dead hands

    4 vote(s)
    22.2%
  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Those of us who follow Toyota, the maker of Prius, are wondering if they might have a different point of view after President Biden's speech.

    Source: Biden, in a Push to Phase Out Gas Cars, Tightens Pollution Rules - The New York Times

    The president is restoring and strengthening tailpipe emissions regulations from the Obama era and has set a target that half of all vehicles sold in the United States be electric by 2030.

    Toyota discontinued the Avalon made in Georgetown KY. What will they build there next?

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    The 50% by 2030 is voluntary.
    The increase CAFE standards will have a bigger influence.

    I expect Toyota to sue to slow down the ramp, if they loose, they can easily catch up.
     
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  3. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    Nope - TOYOTA has spoken. They've got a global picture better than Biden.

    And he won't be around to clean up the mess of billions of tonnes of old EV batteries - and SOLAR PANELS. Yes, some reckon there is recycling coming - but we're yet to see anything.

    I agree with TOYOTA - who have improved by 15% every generation of HYBRID, they do it with a tiny (in comparison) battery and a small amount of fuel. My PRIUS uses only 4l/100 - the next generation which is due in the next 12-18mths will be 15% better again, by 2030 will be another generation and another 15% improvement.
     
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  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    What do you think is happening to all those hybrid batteries? There has been more of them sold to date than plug ins.

    Why the worry over old batteries and solar panels, and not oil and natural gas systems that regularly leak and have their own waste issues?

    Toyota has backed hydrogen. Which will more than likely come from a fossil fuel while costing more. Making it green relies on the same sources of renewable electric as plug ins, so will have the same solar panel and wind blade issues. Just bigger because more generation will be needed.

    Their hybrid system will be reaching the range of diminishing returns. They can't pull out all the stops for efficiency while keeping the system cost down. Which already adds $2000 to $3000 or more to the car's price. The next Prius' big announcement will likely be an ICE burning hydrogen.
     
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  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i voted #3, but not from my cold dead hands, but others. the ice is dead to me

    i see toyota following the money, like most companies. where that will lead is unpredictable, but biden doesn't have enough time or cooperation to change much.
    he should concentrate most of his efforts on a plan to defeat trump in 24.
     
  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    It is likely a 12 kwh battery costs $1000 or less to a manufacturer in 2030. Most people that have bought hybrids in the US, have a garage, they have not penetrated well where plug-ins don't work. It seems that the expense of a hybrid at that time will not be much less than a phev. Toyota will be squeezed considerably on any hybrid profit margins. Manufacturer's by then will have less expensive 48V mild hybrids and phevs along with bevs.

    The 50% goal included phevs. The government of japan wanted similar regulation even including hybrids in the numbers, but toyota's lobby in japan is so strong they rebuffed them. IMHO if toyota keeps fighting these governmental goals in Japan, the US, and Europe, using pac money their investors will be fed up.

    WSJ had an article a couple weeks ago that ice development is ending at most old line auto manufacturers. The reason why is pretty clear. With the rise of phev, turbo charging, electronic supercharging, and 6+ gear or cvt (including hsd) transmission, there is not that much bang for the buck. The current dynamic force toyota engines are about as good as it gets efficiency wise, without spending a lot more. Sure you can probably make it to 50% from 41%, which is a 22% improvement, but its much cheaper to add a bigger battery ;-) The ice is going to be around for at least the next 30 years, but engine factories will get more automated, and designs already are stagnating. There will be fewer jobs to build engines, and less incentives for governments to help auto manufacturers that want to stick to the ice.
     
  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    did obama change toyotas direction?
     
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  8. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    ^More than the other 2.
    He was an 8-year-thing and it was looking like the greens might have legged it out to 16 if it hadn't been for those pesky Russians.

    Polls are for dancers.

    Toyota is a world car company, and although I do not see them selling a bunch of them in China markets like India, the middle east and some of the Stans will probably have skin in the market too.

    Government funded news indicated that, ever the compromiser, Biden didn't go all the way back to the Obama level CAFE standards but rather snapped the chalk-line halfway between his predecessor's numbers and those that they replaced.
    Dot.gov radio also indicated that some of "the usual suspects" were angered that the Biden admin didn't rubber-stamp California's more restrictive CAFE numbers or their EV targets.

    Like his predecessor, Biden is a one-term president, so his CAFE regs will influence the car development market in like manner.

    In piloting, the distance to the horizon (in nautical miles) is 1.17 times the square root of your height of eye
    Politicians think in terms of 2,4,and 6 years which is their height of eye.
    Car companies can be......"short-sighted" too, but their product development and corporate culture are usually less reactive than American voters, which is why the EVangelists have more than one BEV to pick from TODAY, and they will have more-more to pick from 5 years from now - but these things take time.

    Remember....the Cyber-truck was already a napkin drawing when P45 "stole the election" with help from the Rooskies, and they hadn't yet sold ANY of them before P46 "stole the election" and the jury is still out as to how many copies they sell before P47 has a chance to steal the election.

    In the Global Car market, US Presidents have "some" stroke, but they don't even LET US Presidents Drive.....which for either of our last two is probably a good idea, if you remember what happened with Prince Phillip. Biden is pretty cranky, but I'm sure that his CFO has already had the "it's time to take away the keys" talk....and his predecessor probably hasn't driven a car since they all rear-wheel drive.

    CAR BUYERS drive the market, IMHO.

    THAT's why absenting things like chip shortages, Teslas sell like hotcakes and Priuses sell like notcakes.
     
    #8 ETC(SS), Aug 6, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2021
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  9. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Funny all the hand-wringing over electric car batteries, yet nothing about worry for the millions of spent lead-acid batteries that have been going on for what, nearly a century?

    Maybe that's because 90% of solar panels ever made for residential & commercial use are still operational allbeit at 10 to 30% degradation. The largest component in solar panels is glass. Believe it or not glass is recyclable. Other components? Electronics. Believe it or not, Your outdated, spent computer/parts/keyboard is recyclable

    tiny battery - times millions, & folks can have the same hand-wringing hysteria being expressed here over bigger EV batteries. Either they are BOTH recyclable or neither is recyclable.
    .
     
    #9 hill, Aug 6, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2021
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  10. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Wow... Pretty impressive that all the catastrophic effects carbon emission are doing to our planet's climate doesn't exist to you and its just solar panels and EV batteries that are messing up the world. Must be hard to have anyone take you seriously other than your friends in fossil fool industry. With posts like this they should be paying you for being an advocate for destroying the only planet we have to survive on.
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I would like to see J1762 upgraded to boost DC charging from 80 A to 400 A, 160 kW peak DC. Tesla does 250 kW peak DC with a smaller connector.

    Also, higher temperature plug material. This really solves the cross country requirement.

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    This is something I’ve never understood on any OEM EVSE, many use 16 gage wire with poor crimping techniques for 12 amp plugs

    My Volt EVSE (made by cripple creek) had a defective crimp on the neutral AC pin and worse buying said pin aftermarket is a real challenge of wack a mole availability (oddly enough ever CC Voltec plug seems to fail in this way)

    The cord end was a soft 150 degree rated material that had to be replaced because of a businesses loose outlet (which looked clean but damaged my plug)

    Using better quality wire, bigger gage with proper industrial ends and reliefs coupled with 200+ degree rated enamel wire would make any EVSE near indestructible.

    A thermosensor in the right places could simplify things as well
     
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  13. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    If glass is recyclable and wine makers are having trouble getting enough bottles to fuel our Covid inspired drinking habits, why is my glass going in with my trash instead of my recyclables? What made it trash when the county switched trash companies?

    (PS I bring my glass and styrofoam when I visit family in the next county up for recycling, they do it there.)
     
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  14. Sandy Willick

    Sandy Willick New Member

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    I don't think this would affect Toyota's vision.
     
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  15. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Like many cities, my city ended glass recycling pick ups at the end of 2019. So now I gather up all the glass for my gardening clients and put it in a recycling dumpster that the city puts out downtown. The city says these dumpsters are hauled to an asphalt facility that use the glass in their mixture they use on our roads. So that's part of the problem when it comes to glass shortage.

    Another part of the problem is due to pandemic micro-brew beer manufacturers had to put all their kegs that used to go to bars and restaurants into packaging and supply ran out so quickly that literally the entire industry other than the big guys were forced to switch to cans. And what all this has to do with Toyota Prius I have no idea...
     
    #15 PriusCamper, Aug 6, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2021
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  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Costs and hassle are probably why.
    The colors need to be separated, and any rings from the cap need to be removed.
    Then people are probably tossing soda lime and borosilicate glass in recycling. Which can technically be recycled, but can't easily be sorted from regular glass, and if it ends up with regular, the glass plant will have chunks of unmelted glass in their system.

    So stopping recycling or going to use that doesn't need the glass sorted, like asphalt, will happen.

    Many places don't recycle styrofoam because it requires a special compactor to get it dense enough that shipping costs don't exceed any margin on it.
     
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  17. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    Does this count or does it not count as "yet to see anything?"
    (Tesla co-founder creating a battery recycling company.)

    Redwood Materials Spending ‘Hundreds Of Millions’ To Speed Recycling For EV Batteries

    Just got $700M investment
    Redwood Materials raises $700M to expand its battery recycling operation – TechCrunch

    Mike
     
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  18. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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  19. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    upload_2021-8-7_11-39-13.png
     
  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Many of those Rams are mild hybrids.
    Ford came out with a full hybrid this year, and unveiled the F150 EV.
    GM is planning an Ev pick up.
    And what percent of lead-acid batteries were being recycling when the Model T was introduced? It's what the EVs of the time were using.

    At least any EV batteries that go into a landfill aren't filled with toxic materials.
     
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