Winter Tires

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by EyePrime, Oct 6, 2018.

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  1. PT Guy

    PT Guy Senior Member

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    Products offering excellent corrosion protection:
    LPS #3
    CorrosionX
    ACF-50
    Boeshield T-9
    Corrosion Block

    My favorites: LPS #3 leaves a thick waxy film. Corrosion Block is lighter.
     
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  2. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Most recently I tried boiled linseed oil, applied with a foam brush, on all the suspension pieces and bolts I could reach. It's held up quite well.
     
  3. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Yeah when I was in structural engineering office we had a demo lecture on that subject. A salesman of indicator washers, made good points about the woeful amount of variation in bolt tension, depending on thread conditions.

    Maybe well oiled (and reduced torque) would reduce the variation.

    From an incredibly informative Pocket Reference (Thomas J. Glover):

    IMG_9624.JPG
    (Addendum: put the book under glass, for a better "scan".)

    Yike, I see "Never-Seize" at the very end, with torque reduction factor of 0.45. @Ragingfit gooped that on and still used full torque value, with his engine swap. I think it'll be ok.

    Addendum #2:

    See some interesting discussion here, opinions ranging from no reduction to moderate reduction:

    Torque spec variance with Anti-Seize - Motor Vehicle Maintenance & Repair Stack Exchange
     
    #63 Mendel Leisk, Nov 18, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
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  4. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    So Mendel, let me ask you this question, if you lube the stud with this material, instead of using lug nut torque specified in the manual (76 ft•lbf for PRIME), you would set torque wrench reduced at 76x0.45=34.2ft•lbf? That seems counterintuitive.

    BTW, when I changed to winter wheels and tires a few days ago, I did not lube the studs and used full 76 ft•lbf for PRIME, but should I have lubed them? Studs looked OK to me, but being the first time ever doing the tire change DIY, I have no reference point.

    IMG_20181115_095340.jpg
     
  5. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    The object is to impart a certain tension in the stud. With clean dry threads, the nut is relatively difficult to turn, requires more effort as tension increases. With a liberal application of Never-Seize, the threads are slick-as-snot, much less effort will achieve the correct tension. By the time the torque wrench clicks, you'll likely be way over-tensioned.

    I looked up Never-Seize, and the application instructions recommend to use it quite sparingly. Maybe even on just the leading threads, let it distribute as you screw it in. In @Ragingfit engine swap videos, it's drip

    I wouldn't. I would suspect Toyota expects "clean, dry" threads. Looking through the Owner's Manual and Repair Manual I couldn't find and stipulation though. The studs on on yours look pristine. What kind of lug nuts are you using on your winter tires? If they're closed-end they're pretty well sealed. But f they're open-ended by winter's end you'll likely being getting rust on the tips. It's "cosmetic", but after a few years it'll look anything but cosmetic, lol.

    Again, my tact with open-ended nuts is to put them on, torque them, and then apply sparing drop of oil to the tip, spread it around.

    It's a tricky balancing act: what is a "clean, dry thread? After a few years with no lube the studs will start to get a little rust regardless, and I think resist turning more than when new. Maybe a VERY sparing application of some anti-seize. My method to do that would be to brush a small dab of anti-seize on something else, a tin lid or whatever. Spread it thin. Then take an old toothbrush, go over it, just picking up the slightest amount on the bristles, then "dress" the stud threads and tip with that brush.

    FWIW, I went over everything I could reach, all the suspension components, bolts, brushed/wiped, then applied rust-preventative coating, two or three times now. Most recently I used boiled linseed oil, mostly applied with a foam brush. It's held up pretty well. It's maybe a bit obsessive, I'll admit.

    It's good for what's going on here for example:

    upload_2018-11-18_7-19-59.png
     
    #65 Mendel Leisk, Nov 18, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
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  6. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Thank you for the explanation. It now makes perfect sense. For my novice mind, lubed stud being slick, I thought I needed to torque the nut even harder to tighten it, so it will not slip off easily.

    Winter wheels I bought came with closed cap lug nuts with key. No exposed studs, and hub is also covered. Although cheaper than any steely I could find online, the alloy wheel I got looks better than OEM wheels and lighter.
    IMG_20181115_110800.jpg

    Yeah, after only 1 winter I already see rust developing in suspension and brake components. Last year before the first winter, I took my car for underbody coating with Fluid Film. However, with underbody of PRIME fully covered with plastic, the shop I took could not apply any without charging a lot for labor of removing plastic covers. The shop even said I did not need to apply anything on this car. So, I let my car pass without any coating. I am now rethinking about taking the car to special body shop for permanent underbody coating which suppose to last 10 years, but cost ~$1K for the application.
     
    #66 Salamander_King, Nov 18, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
  7. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    That thought crossed my mind too: a bit of scale and rust is a natural lock-nut.

    I'd highly recommend to DIY. It's nigh impossible to pay someone to do this, it's fiddly, time-consuming. I typically do one end at a time. It's best to have a sheltered garage with a clean/level slab. Definitely not a winter project. If I'm doing the rear for example, I'll chock the front wheels (real chocks, heavy rubber) fore and aft, raise the rear as high as possible, settled it securely on to safety stands.

    I don't use the scissor jack locations for safety stands. Even the scissor jack doesn't bear on those knife edges. It's worthwhile trying it out, for practice. You'll see: the bearing point is actually beyond that crimped edge, on the inside. And it will likely dimple a bit, the first time you use it. Look in that vicinity, but inboard a bit: there should be a heavy-gauge reinforced "hump" with an oval slot, kinda medicinal capsule shaped, about 1.5 inch long, .75 inch wide. Probably with a black rubber plug. This is for some sort of locator/retainer pin I think. And a good spot for the safety stand cradles, at least the rears.

    Anyway, I remove the rear wheels, and one or two plastic pieces, just if they're covering rust-prone suspension pieces. Any small fastener bolts/screws I remove I oil-soak before reinstall.

    I brush off everything I can reach, then start coating, most recently with boiled linseed oil. It cures slightly tacky, really flows into all the corners. This was applied early last spring, still looking good. Everything was looking dismayingly rusty a few years back, especially bolts and welds.
     
  8. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I thought about doing that on my previous Gen3. Then found out a local shop doing Fluid Film underbody rust prevention coating on passenger car for $79. With coupon, they would do it for half of that. Fluid Film FLUID FILM | Powerful Corrosion Protection & Lubrication being lanolin based material, they recommend yearly application. The shop I took my Gen3 would do the touch-up reapplication for $30. The cost was cheaper than doing it myself. But that was for Gen3 Prius, that has less plastic covers. With PRIME and probably Gen4, it looks like over 90% of underbody is covered with the plastic. I am not sure taking those plastic off and applying coating yearly is something I want to do. I think I read somewhere Canadian version has no underbody plastic or less than US version?
     
  9. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    The plastic panels are probably the same up here. I would guess.

    I wouldn't go any further than needed, removing panels, or apply rust proofing where it's not warranted. I've pulled back one or two panels and found everything pristine behind. I've found by far it's the exposed suspension pieces that are the most rust prone. Especially the welded joints. And the bolts.

    The trouble I see with pros: they will have an obligation to do a thorough job, doing everything. And they may miss stuff. And they're rushed, so maybe using portable impact wrenches, snapping off bolt heads, breaking plastic fasteners. Overspraying.

    It's debatable what's needed, and how often. I'd suggest trying a bit yourself. You'll get hooked... :sneaky:
     
  10. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    After having our 12 year old Sienna with only 100k miles junked earlier this year due to corroded rear differential and drive shaft, I do feel a need to prevent underbody rusting in our region if I want to keep a car longer than 10 years. What I am not sure is what part of underbody NEEDS to be rust proofed. My reliable 1998 Civic which we drove 15 years, had perfect engine and it run fine when I sold it for $200, but had rusted through body panel around rear wheel well and corroded exhaust. I don't know if any under body coating has prevented that type of rust problems.

    The photo is the underside of 2005 Sienna right before we junked it early this year.

    IMG_20180113_102428.jpg
     
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  11. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    You sure that wasn't employed as an artifical reef... :whistle:
     
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  12. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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  13. PT Guy

    PT Guy Senior Member

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    Never-Seez®...pleez

    Remember, if it's good to put a little on, it's better to put more on. The Moron Theory.

    "The object is to impart a certain tension in the stud."
    Exactly. The very large diesel engines I've worked on had ways to stretch the studs to their specified tension. A specified hydraulic jack was attached to the stud, pumped up to 10,000 psi, and the nut tightened or loosened with a foot-long tommy bar. Moly-Kote was used on the threads. Even nuts so big and heavy that they needed to be lifted with a hoist (each nut!) were tightened or loosed with this foot long bar after the specified stretch.

    Don't worry too much about minor rust on the stud threads. That's nothing new. A toothbrush sized wire brush is good to have. Heavy rust needs to be cleaned off. A few drops of one's favorite penetrating oil will help the nut come off without stripping. If the nut gets stuck on the rusty threads, move it left and right as far as it wants to go, and each time it's tightened back down clean and use more penetrating oil on the threads until the nut is all the way off. Don't just muscle a seized nut...you'll strip or break the stud.

    That rusted up Sienna is ug-ly. Some rustproofing products work great but can be heavy on one side and unbalance rotating parts.
     
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  14. KP7

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    Figured I would give a quick update: got an alloy wheel and winter tire package from a New England chain tire store. I went with the Michelin X-Ice XI3 and have been pleased with them so far (about 500 miles in). Noticeable drop in MPG and more road noise, but they dealt easily with 2 inches of slush on steep hills the other morning. Also ended up with aftermarket TMPS sensors--the store is supposed to swap over from winter to summer wheel sets and back each year, including resetting TPMS sensor IDs, for free. We shall see if that is the case or if they try to nickel and dime me during the changeover. All in $920 after tax and mail-in rebate.
     
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  15. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    What was your OEM tire? I recently changed my PRIME to Xice3 too. I did not have snow tires on mine last year, but the OEM Dunlop Enasaver were down to 5/32. I did not have confidence in them to pull me through another winter. I also noticed a substantial mpg drop after changing to Xice on my PRIME. My mpg was 53.2 with OEM Dunlop (without any EV run) two weeks prior to switching, and it dropped to 46.5 with Xice (again without any EV run) for the following two weeks. I was a bit surprised. For my previous Gen3, Xice did not drop on mpg compared to OEM Ecopia for winter drives. Of course, during this two weeks, I had two major winter storms. That might be culprits for the downturn on mpg for this short period comparison.

    Yap, many shops do that free winter change over. If you purchased an extra set of internal TPMS sensors, then re-learning programming is just a matter of pushing a few buttons on a handheld TPMS tool. With already mounted and balanced tires on wheels, their jobs are easier than swapping tires onto the same rims. I use to swap my tires onto the same OEM wheels and TPMS twice a year at a local tire shop offering free winter/spring change over when tires were purchased there.
     
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  16. KP7

    KP7 Member

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    Toyo Nanoenergy. I've noticed about a 5 MPGe drop as well, some days a bit more, on my 90 mile round trip commute (no workplace charging). Some of this is likely due to the colder weather getting less EV driving, but I think a couple of the MPGe are due to the tires.
     
  17. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    For PRIME, EV driving throws off mpg calculation, making it almost impossible to compare tire effects alone. So, for comparison purpose, I did no charging at all (0 EV drive) for a full tank all on EV drive before and after the tire switch. 13% loss is a big deal, but it is most likely caused by two snow storms. I am currently running a full tank HV only drive again to see if the mpg on Xice improves.
     
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