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Would a Prolong Charger deal with this issue?...

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by priusrecon, Oct 19, 2017.

  1. priusrecon

    priusrecon Member

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    Just finished replacing a bad module in my HV batt, and so far is working great. I've noticed the new block pair is consistently running about a half a volt lower than the others however. I tried matching them by draining the two paired modules to the others using a headlight and multimeter before re-installing.

    Here are some screenshots

    block voltages before repair....
    this is while draining the battery

    Capture+_2017-10-01-14-01-20.png

    block voltages after repair.....
    while draining

    Capture+_2017-10-18-13-23-33.png


    voltage graphs before.... Note that all blocks filled up to the same top voltages during charging, but the one separated during exertion, like climbing a hill or rolling on the electr motor only.

    Capture+_2017-10-01-14-09-56.png


    voltage graphs after.... Here the voltage is uniformly lower, but seems to faithfully follow those of the others under most conditions.

    Capture+_2017-10-18-13-24-37 - Copy.png


    1) Can the car be driven and used like this? Will this eventually even out as a result of the repeated charge/discharging cycles of normal driving?

    2) or, Should I try to bump up those errant voltages using my single module balance charger?

    3) If I bought one of those Prolong Chargers, would that device smooth out those voltage differences for me en-mass?

    Oh, and 4) Can the Prolong be used to charge a battery pack that is not installed in a car? (I have a spare in the garage)?
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    @jeff652 from Hybrid Automotive should be along with an official answer. I just tagged him for you.
     
  3. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    I think that's what it's designed to do unless there is a cell that has actually failed. However, I'll wait for Jeff's expert opinion. ;)
     
  4. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    Sure but you'd need another harness as repeatedly removing the one installed in the car would be a big PITA and the connections are not designed to do that at all.

    Yes, that's the point. After a thorough reconditioning, I found only .01-.02v difference between all 28 modules.

    It may or may not or eventually fail. :unsure:

    I have no experience with this method.

    GOOD LUCK!
     
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  5. priusrecon

    priusrecon Member

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    Okay, so I bought the Prolong charger and automatic discharger set, hooked it up to the car and did the complete 3 cycle routine. Took several days. Finished up with a complete recharge and balancing, and the results are.... Block 7 still won't fall in line with the other blocks.

    I also had to replace a module in Block 2, which is now working fine, and all block voltages converge very nicely during idle or steady state driving, but Block 7 will now over volt when charging (breaking, etc), and then undervolt while under load.

    Unlike before the repair, when the voltage dropped off sharply when they were taxed, that block will merely drift higher in voltage, and then lower in voltage during the various load phases compared to the other blocks which appear more in lock-step (within a few tenths of a volt). Block 7 routinely drifts up about 1/2 a volt, or down 1/2 a volt or so, making it alternately the highest, and then the lowest block voltage outlier.

    Other than that, the car drives fine, it's just not happy because the computer eventually throws the P3017 code, and then eventually goes into limp mode.

    I tested both modules in Block 7 before replacing them in the pack, and they compared to others I randomly tested elsewhere in the pack.

    Any ideas on this issue? Is this something another few hits with the Prolong would deal with?....Or is there some super subtle module issue I'm missing here?
     
  6. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    Maybe, only trying it will say for sure whether or not it will make a difference.
    Not sure what your testing involved, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The real life load and discharge shows weakness in one or both of the modules in block 7. Purchase a couple of modules with a similar charge/discharge/capacity profile as the others in the pack, throw them in and be done with it. Do another charge/discharge/charge cycle and then road test.
     
  7. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    If the block is first to go high during regen and the first to go low during assist, then you need to get rid of one of the modules in that block.

    A Prolong charger will not fix that issue.
     
  8. priusrecon

    priusrecon Member

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    Found Something curious!

    With that one errant block, I've been tracking the voltages, and when I measure the module voltages and compare
    them to the total block voltage, I find there is a discrepency. The total block voltage does not add up to the
    two individual module voltages for that one block like they do for all the other blocked pairs. Under all
    circumstances (car on/car off/car on with load applied); all the module voltages are matching each other all
    within 0.1V of each other, however, even though the module voltages are matching, that one block voltage can be
    off from the others by as much as the error I keep finding in my block monitoring app, and can be off by as much
    as more than half a volt or so. So I start checking around that block and find I'm getting a voltage difference
    across the big brass strap connecting the two modules of that block (see picture).


    20171107_183055 (2).jpg


    This voltage difference goes away with the car turned off or in accessory position, but comes back when I turn it
    on and put it under load, like chocking the wheels and putting it in reverse. I get anywhere from .3V to more than
    half a volt in the few simple tests I've put it through. It seems the more current I put through it, the greater
    that voltage drop through the strap.

    Can somebody tell me what's happening and how to deal with it? ....And can that be what is setting off my computer
    DTC's?
     
  9. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    A high resistance connection could do that. I bet the strap is corroded and making a poor electrical connection.
     
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  10. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    I agree.
    Here's the red flag for a loose or corroded connection:
    Once you close the circuit and current starts to flow, the corrosion acts like a resister in the circuit and you have a voltage drop across it. Stop the current, and all voltages across the resistance will be the same with reference to ground or negative terminal, and therefore zero across the bad connection.

    From Ohm's Law -- V=IR. (Volts equals current times resistance). So, the if circuit is open, there's no current. Hence V=0R. No matter what the resistance, if you multiply it by 0 amps, you get zero volts.
     
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  11. priusrecon

    priusrecon Member

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    What is the best way to clean the bus bars? Would sand blasting do the trick?

    I used a small hobbyist's wire wheel on a roto-tool on them the first time, but I don't think it did
    the job. I also did the faces of the terminal nuts. The posts of the modules themselves looked
    pristine so I didn't spend time on them

    Currently, the bus metal is shiny and polished, but still appears dark in color on some sections.

    I
     
  12. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    @ericbecky would know best. He is one of our professionals. Or @TMR-JWAP . He does battery work too.
     
  13. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    Go to home depot or lowes and purchase a small container of muriatic acid. Its typically used to etch concrete prior to painting, but will dissolve anything on the copper, and leave the copper untouched. Use it in a plastic or glass container.

    Also, remember to torque the fastener to 48 INCH pounds. This is important, because if it's not tight enough, you'll get a layer of corrosion between the copper bar and the terminal. I've also started using NO-OX-ID on all my busbars to help prevent corrosion and to improve contact. I just use a dab, rub it into the entire surface on both sides and then wipe it off
     
    #13 TMR-JWAP, Nov 8, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
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  14. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    I'm a fan of buying new wiring harnesses and bussbars.... but that's just me.
    I don't want any issues for customers.
     
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  15. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    I would use a baking soda/water mix followed by a good flush if I couldn't get new wires, but I also think @ericbecky has the best solution.
     
  16. priusrecon

    priusrecon Member

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    Got the acid and soaked the bus bars. There were stubborn dark stains that would not soak off, so I got a cheap rock tumbler and tumbled them in sand and water for an hour and that finished the job.

    I then soaked the terminal nuts in a separate solution of vinegar and salt as I've read and seen on numerous YouTube videos, to get rid of the heavy crystaline deposits on them. While the soak worked, instead of getting shiny silver terminal nuts out the other end, mine turned all dark. I tumbled them to no avail, so I re-tumbled them in vinegar & sand this time. That got rid of the darkness, but turned them copper colored.
    Are they still fit to use with this new copper color? If so, all I need to do is re-assemble the battery.
     
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  17. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    The solution took the zinc/chromate/dichromate (whatever it is) plating off the nuts. The muriatic acid would do the same thing. They'll still work, they'll just not have the sacrificial protective layer for corrosion resistance.
     
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  18. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    That's always the problem with cleaning them. They work again, but will corrode sooner than new ones.
     
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  19. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    True, but it is inexpensive troubleshooting to see if that resolves the original symptoms. If they bought an OEM battery it would have new bars anyway.
     
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  20. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    Excellent point!