YAPiP - recreating pEEf's approach

Discussion in 'Prius PHEV Plug-In Modifications' started by jdh2550, May 23, 2012.

  1. lopezjm2001

    lopezjm2001 Senior Member

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    I have been doing some work to try to find out what the two can frames 0x0348 and 0x03C8 do as described by pEEF. I used my Canview V4 serial output which downloads raw can frame messages to my Notebook and using the Realterm program the data is stored into a file. I then used a simple hexedit program. I used the find function to find theses two can messages as shown below. They have the same data all the time due to my Prius being in OutOfGas mode so my ECM was disabled due to a DTC.

    03 48 06 00 01 00 00 00 52. Forced EV, HV ECU >>>>> ECM, warm up request, RPM, ice allowed to run...

    03 C8 05 04 34 00 00 08 Forced EV. ECM >>>>>> HV ECU, How to warm up.....

    The first two bytes are the frame identifier. The third byte is the number of bytes of control data which follow. It is this control data that we are interested in. I am planning to collect these two can messages whilst ice is enabled. Collect data for EV, stealth mode and Ice spin. Hopefully we can find which bits do what. This will take time and I will post as I go and I will add more info to this post tomorrow.

    I am new to Canbus so please let me know if I missed something or if I got it wrong.
     
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  2. jdh2550

    jdh2550 Co-Founder, Current Motor Company

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    I just read that thread - thanks! It certainly gives me insight into what's going on and how engine warmup happens.

    I shouldn't actually need the spoof hardware because my new bECU+ (I think I might have stolen that name from pEEf) will now be choreographing the requests between hECU and eECU. This means that I can control the engine mode by whatever means I want (probably just employing different set points like the spoofer's are doing).

    Do you know where they got the information to decide at where to put their set points? How did they decide to say an engine is "warm" sooner than the Toyota engineers' choice?
     
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  3. jdh2550

    jdh2550 Co-Founder, Current Motor Company

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    Where does the text listed after the numbers come from? Is that your interpretation or is it something that Canview is adding? If it's coming from Canview then maybe you could ask them what they know about these messages?

    It looks good to me.

    Good luck!
     
  4. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

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    I do know where they got it. They got the info thru much trial and error. If the search function of the website gets working correctly, you can do a search for thermistor hack and read up on all the history. Bob Wilson, The Hobbit and [email protected] did all the initial research (on Gen I) and it has been refined over the years by several others including jtcsd, TheForce and ccdisce (Gen II). The basics of it are, spoofing too early (below 104 F) caused the engine to run rough and set DTC's (understandably so). Leaving the spoof on all the time didn't allow for overtemp protection. Controlling the mid levels provided the best overall solution and, it does an awesome job of it. No codes, S4 very quick, engine runs smooth (when it does run).

    If you are going to use temp set points you should disable spoofing at temps below 104, spoof engine temp to 169-172 (required for S4) when actual temp is >104 to <180. Spoofing should be disabled at actual ICE temps above 182.

    Does that answer your questions?
     
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  5. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    cgates30, I too, like the A123 20ah prismatic cells.

    jdh2550 is right, the 20ah cells do require more connections than simply using higher ah batteries in the first place.

    That said, I have organized a large group buy of 20ah A123 cells (500 of them) for ongoing projects. Most of them are already spoken for this time.

    I'm sure we will be doing other group buys in the future. That could help bring the your pack cost closer to $4,000 for the pack.

    Let me know if you guys need any and I'd be happy to help out.
     
  6. cgates30

    cgates30 Junior Member

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    Great idea! Paralleling them will be 140 cells (plus some spares...) so it would only take 3-4 folks to hit that threshold. I have to wait to see if I go the contactor method (70 cells) or replacement path.
     
  7. lopezjm2001

    lopezjm2001 Senior Member

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    The interpretation which is a bit vague comes from pEEF's post here ... Update and technical details on my PHEV project | Page 2 | PriusChat

    I will start a new thread Decoding CAN messages 0x348 &amp; 0x3C8 as described by pEEF | PriusChat
    based on pEEF's post rather than using this one. Forced EV is forcing the Prius to do EV only due to the ECM being diabled by a DTC. Also known as OutOfGas mode or Ice kill mode.
     
  8. lopezjm2001

    lopezjm2001 Senior Member

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  9. mrbigh

    mrbigh Prius Absolutum Dominium

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    Any details/reference that can be share on the group buy? I'm good for a 146 pouches.......
     
  10. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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  11. jdh2550

    jdh2550 Co-Founder, Current Motor Company

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    Well this is pretty funny...

    I was dinking around with a friends DashDaq ODB2 tool and looking at the codes etc. I decided to reset the DTC's expecting them to come right back. Well they haven't come back yet...

    Cheapest fix ever? ;-)

    I know the codes will likely come back soon - but at least in the mean time I can get a feel for the car's normal operation.
     
  12. mrbigh

    mrbigh Prius Absolutum Dominium

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    Hey, still you can open the battery box and clean all the battery links and terminals for a better performance.
    You may be surprise at what you will see, these do NOT only tarnish....:confused:
     
  13. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

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    JD,
    The search function seems to be working now and I was able to find this (the first post about thermistor hack). It has a lot of the history and progression if your interested. The Force also developed one using an Arduino board/chip.

    another thermistor hack | PriusChat
     
  14. kiettyyyy

    kiettyyyy Plug-In Supply Engineer

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    Alright, sorry about my short hiatus.

    Both pEEf's and my own hack involve intercepting CAN frames from the Engine ECU to the vehicle CAN bus.

    That should be enough to get you going in the correct direction.

    I'm almost positive that Plug-in Supply is going to be selling my ECM assembly. We will also release control protocols in order to control my ECM board.

    Why reinvent the wheel? ;)
     
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  15. jdh2550

    jdh2550 Co-Founder, Current Motor Company

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    Hi kiettyyyy -

    Thanks for posting.

    Why climb Everest? :D One doesn't do these things because one has to. However, if your board is reasonably priced and reasonably controllable then I might skip the summit and just hang around the basecamp... so to speak. But, chances are I'd rather climb to the summit.

    Right now I'm just reading the "how to climb everest guidebook" and getting my gear ready.

    Hmmm, perhaps I'm pushing this mountaineering metaphor way too far???

    Yep I know that pEEf's does and I know, in general, which messages will need playing with. I don't know much about your system or the PIS design. Personally, I'm trying to come up with a system that removes the existing NiMH pack entirely - which the PIS system doesn't do (but pEEf's does).

    Some questions:
    How does your system differ from pEEf's?
    What CAN messages are you reading and interpreting?
    Will you open source that information? If you don't want to then that's fine - I totally respect your decision. However, I do plan on open sourcing what I do.

    Again, if your solution is open enough such that I can go someway to advancing the total PHEV experience then it might be an interesting place for me to start. For example I can work on higher level algorithms to control the "warmup" issues I discussed earlier.

    So many wheels to reinvent (or mountains to climb) - and so little time (dang day job get's in the way)! ;)
     
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  16. jdh2550

    jdh2550 Co-Founder, Current Motor Company

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    That sounds intriguing! Yes, some simple maintenance may be in order. However, I do think the pack is probably damaged - it's just a question of how widespread that damage is. Maybe the pack will have some salvageable cells that someone else can use. No NiMH for me! (well, I'll be all NiMH for a while yet)
     
  17. lopezjm2001

    lopezjm2001 Senior Member

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    At US$1600 ea. For a PIS ECM assembly. When you can buy a AVR for US$300. Why not reinvent the wheel.
     
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  18. jdh2550

    jdh2550 Co-Founder, Current Motor Company

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    Actually the AVR UC3C-EK that I'm using has way more features than needed. So, theoretically, if we were to lay out a board for this it would be more like $150 (or less?).

    While we're on the subject of "commercial enterprise" vs. "for-fun-not-profit" - a couple of observations:

    1) I have no issue at all with the commercial vendors of the kits and them charging the prices they do. When you start such a venture then there's a LOT more to it than the hardware cost!
    2) I can also see why a commercial vendor may be unwilling to share their special sauce. That's fine and is what I expect. However, in this sort of "hacker community" I think it's also a little misguided. The more we all share the better the knowledge base. The better the knowledge base the better the products. The better the products the bigger potential for sales. But, that's a personal choice and I'm not going to mind at all if folks don't want to share.
    3) However, I do take issue (and it hasn't happened here - but I've seen aspects of it elsewhere), when commercial vendors who claim proprietary knowledge and then get bent out of shape when someone re-creates the wheel. Err, aren't we ALL standing on the shoulders of the Toyota engineers? Isn't EVERY system attached to the Prius working on the basis of reverse engineering? Haven't all of us "hackers" relied on information gleaned from boards like this that was shared freely?
    4) For those who think that an open-source project "kills" the market - I'd suggest the opposite. Especially in the hacker space an open-source project helps nurture the market. There are plenty of real world examples of how folks have made a LOT of money by building product and services on top of open-source. Linux is the granddaddy of them all.
    5) To make your fortune you don't have to be the only one with a widget, you don't even have to have the most feature rich widget. You just have to have the complete package that the customer values most highly. The most recent example of this: a 2 year old startup company called Instagram sold for $1BN. They're not the only photo sharing app out there - but apparently they're the one with the most perceived value... Wow.

    OK - that was all a little preachy. Sorry about that. I don't mean to come across that way - I just find it an interesting topic.

    Finally, much KUDOS to one particular vendor: Enginer. Jack reached out to me to offer encouragement and assistance. I'll be meeting him at the Michigan EAA show next weekend (9th June). I'll also be there with Current Motor - so stop on by if you want to say hi!
     
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  19. NortTexSalv04Prius

    NortTexSalv04Prius Active Member

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    Jack I think you suffer from not reading entire thread . Two things most of us want a updated tech energy storage and nimh and old nimh packs do not go down that path
     
  20. NortTexSalv04Prius

    NortTexSalv04Prius Active Member

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    You go......I wish I could attend EAA .....China will make just about anything these days and with or without patent/int prop right permission
     
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