Zero Point Energy ZPE - Opening a Path Beyond Fossil Fuel

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by Overtone, Apr 27, 2005.

  1. altaskier

    altaskier New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus\";p=\"85018)</div>
    Sorry - this is not a demonstration of "cold" fusion. It's a demonstration of a cleverly small neutron source which can drive real fusion. It looks more interesting as a source for neutron imaging than for power plants.
     
  2. Overtone

    Overtone New Member

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    The Bell Labs work is mentioned only to point out they met no hazard in extracting energy from the Zero Point Field.

    Critical thinking is always a plus. Experimental data is as well.

    A Demonstration Device sitting on a desk is the best way to prove to most technically trained people that meaningful extraction of ZPE is real, and opens a path beyond fossil and nuclear fuels.
     
  3. karmavore

    karmavore New Member

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    Re: Zero Point Energy ZPE - Opening a Path Beyond Fossil Fue

    I, for one, am investing all my points in Zero Point Energy, and if you want to get rich quickly like me, suggest you do the same. :p

    Brad
     
  4. Ray Moore

    Ray Moore Active Member

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    Karmavore is hilarious but I don't even feel safe investing my points there. I would trade them to anyone who has a plug nickel they wanted to get rid of.
     
  5. altaskier

    altaskier New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Overtone\";p=\"85580)</div>
    Yes, they met no hazard. They also extracted no energy! They used the Casimir force but did not do W=Fx work to extract energy.
     
  6. priusenvy

    priusenvy Senior Member

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    Re: Zero Point Energy ZPE - Opening a Path Beyond Fossil Fue

    In honor of the relase of Tiger (MacOS 10.4):

    "Keeping an open mind is a virtue - but as the space engineer James Oberg once said, not so open that your brains fall out"

    and

    "But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
    --Butthead Astronomer

    Those of you who follow Apple will know the reference.

    I used to live in Marin County, which is adjacent to Sonoma County, where Sebastapol is located. I understand they smoke a lot of pot up there.
     
  7. Overtone

    Overtone New Member

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    I won't argue as to the Lucent device extracting energy, there are obviously other points of view.

    However, I suggest seriously interested parties read the Patent listed below. The Abstract follows:

    United States Patent 6,842,326
    Pinto January 11, 2005
    Apparatus for energy extraction-I

    Abstract

    In some embodiments, the illustrative method defines an engine cycle comprising several state changes that allow for a net gain of energy from an underlying source force field. The potential for a net energy gain via the method results from the discovery that a Casimir force system can be rendered non-conservative. This is done by appropriately altering one or more of a variety of physical factors that affect the Casimir force, or by altering any of a variety of environmental factors that affect such physical factors. In various embodiments, the extracted energy is stored, used to power energy-consuming devices or used to actuate a micromechanical device. In one embodiment, the method is implemented using an energy extraction apparatus that comprises two spaced Casimir force-generating boundaries that are operatively coupled to an energy transformation system. The energy transformation system includes a first device that is operable to alter at least one physical factor of the system. The energy transformation system also includes a second device that is operable to change the distance between the two Casimir force-generating boundaries, and further operable to maintain the distance between the boundaries while the first device alters the physical factor.

    Dr. Pinto left the Jet Propulsion Laboratory to begin a commercial firm. His Company is developing ZPE energy conversion systems that utilize the Casimir Force. A few years back he published a paper in Physical Review summarizing the state of the art with regard to ZPE, and outlining what he proposed might be accomplished. The Intellectual Property he has generated since may prove of unusual interest.
     
  8. altaskier

    altaskier New Member

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    True. Some of them happen to be based on physics.

    So I took up the suggestion to look into Pinto's work. According to the ISI citation database, Pinto has written a total of five papers on ZPE and the Casimir effect. Only one (Phys. Rev. B 60, 14740, 1999) has any citations. That paper proposes a scheme that, even if it were to be correct, involves an energy output of less than a billionth of a Joule per square centimeter for plates spaced around five atomic distances (10 angstroms) apart. Large area plates with sub-10-angstrom finish and flatness (e.g., superpolished mirrors) involve relatively thick substrates so that it is hard to imagine of a thickness of less than 1 mm for any practical device. In that case we're talking about the potential for getting ten billionths of a Joule of energy per cubic centimeter of a working device. Now compare that with gasoline, which releases 30 thousand joules per cubic centimeter, and you see that this is only about a million million times away from being a practical device.
     
  9. Overtone

    Overtone New Member

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    Useful Extraction of ZPE

    In the six years since the Phys Rev paper was published, Pinto has started his Company, and obtained at least two U.S. Patents -- with at least three more published patent applications. When the firm first began, he believed he had found a way to multiply the Casimir Force by more than one million. As his work surfaces in the market, you may be surprised to find that he is developing methods that yield practical energy extraction. If you find his work of interest, you might keep an eye on the USPTO publications.

    Our own work is based on extraction of ZPE by means of magnetics. Later this year, when pre-production prototypes of Demonstration Devices are ready, we will release one or more papers that will provide possible explanations of what we observe in our laboratories. We are filing a number of patent applications and they will, of course, reveal much more.

    Once again be aware that we do not expect anyone with scientific training to accept this work until they see a working unit, preferably on thier own desktop. Kits and toys are also planned for the future.
     
  10. xevious

    xevious New Member

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    For all the folks who aren't very familiar with the US patent process (this is most people on the planet), there is one very important fact to keep in mind when a would-be seller of snake oil uses the old ploy of "it's patented!" as proof of validity, integrity, and utility:

    ANYONE can get a patent for ANY THING (or method), regardless of whether or not the thing (or method) actually works.

    I'm feeling tautological:

    The fact that a device or method is patented means nothing more than the fact that the inventor has applied for legal protection of his or her invention. The invention need not actually work, or even be based on reality, in order for a patent to be granted.

    Before anyone starts quoting patent law back at me, I'll state that this is NOT how the patent system was intended to work. Ideally, each patent is reviewed for technical feasibility and adherence to reality ("Utility") by a competent scientist or engineer.

    In reality, the US patent office is simply unable to effectively manage the enormous volume of patent applications that flood in yearly, and patents are loosely checked before being rubber-stamped. Infringing or unmeritorious patents may eventually be sorted out in court.

    Even if the US patent office was able to adequately handle the volume of patents, their guidelines for utility are by neccessity rather lenient - statements in a patent application are presumed to be true unless unless the patent office can establish falsehood or deceit. The device has only to be 'more likely than not' to work. "Establishing falsehood" generally entails laboratory trials and the like, which equates to time and money, two resources the patent office has in short supply.

    In the end, the burden of proof is on the US patent office, not the inventor. But don't take my word for it. Look it up yourself.

    Other questionable and/or rather quacky patents:

    5,989,178 - Method of using a magnetic ring (quack medical device)
    6,004,596 - A crustless peanut butter and jelly sandwich
    6,024,935 - Free energy method
    6,362,718 - Free energy/perpetual motion machine
    6,368,227 - Method for swinging on a (playground) swing

    I'll admit the PB&J patent shows utility, but is rather questionable in the novelty department. Same goes for the swinging method. (These were submitted by Smuckers corp. and a 5-year old, respectively.)

    We now return you to the free-energy advert already in progress...
     
  11. Overtone

    Overtone New Member

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    The caution regarding patents is well done and important.

    However, when the inventor is a respected scientist pioneering new technology in a commercial setting, patents and patent applications are often the first place where details of an advance in the state-of-the-art are revealed.

    ZPE is no more free than solar or wind energy. As with solar or wind energy, there is still capital cost, for the equipment required, although it is likely to be substantially less in most cases.

    As mentioned in my initial post on this thread, NASA data, (from the Wilkenson Probe), suggests there is far more than 20 times the ZPE available at any point on the earth's surface than from solar energy at the peak of the solar day. Moreover, it is available 24/7.

    At least two major aerospace firms, according to Aviation Week, March 1st, 2004, are investigating ZPE for power and propulsion. One is British Aerospace, which hopes to achieve Mach 4 fighter aircraft, as well as several other breakthroughs. The other is an American firm, not named, but supported by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA).
     
  12. 8AA

    8AA Active Member

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    FYI - British Aerospace ceased to exist in 1999
     
  13. Overtone

    Overtone New Member

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    BAE Systems A short Quote from the Aviation Week article.

    Whoops. That should have been BAE Systems. The 3-1-04 article stated:

    "BAE Systems, launched “Project Greenglow†in 1986 “to provide a focus for research into novel propulsion systems and the means to power them,†said R.A. Evans, the project leader, in a technical paper last year. Although funding levels have been modest, Greenglow is exploring ZPE as one element of the program’s “project-directed research,†according to John E. Allen, a consultant to BAE Systems.

    At least one large U.S. aerospace company is embarking on ZPE research in response to a Defense Dept. request, but the company and its customer cannot be identified yet. National laboratories, the military servic es and other companies either now have or have had low-level ZPE-related efforts underway."
     
  14. altaskier

    altaskier New Member

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    That's a stretch... A few publications, most with no citations? And Pinto's work at JPL was just on routine space probe navigation. The web site Interstellar Technologies Corp. uses the phrase "award-winning" - well, a few essay prizes from the Gravity Research Foundation is OK but not terribly significant.

    I took at look at the real numbers that could be extracted from one paper and found it to be six orders of magnitude away from being interesting. The response to that has not been anthing solid but rather an "appeal to authority" and "it's secret right now" type answer. I agree that a quantitative demonstration with verification by independent scientists would be convincing. No such demonstration has yet been presented. The hallmark of good science and technology is when it can be reproduced by anyone with the appropriate equipment (which is why Pons and Fleichman were quickly discredited regarding cold fusion).
     
  15. Overtone

    Overtone New Member

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    Independent lab tests and a possible future scenario

    Verification by independent scientists of our magnetic ZPE extraction systems is planned prior to the end of 2005.

    At least one variety of demonstration device is expected to be ready for manufacture under license in the same time frame. The initial target market will be schools, colleges and universities. Relatively inexpensive toys will follow.

    MPI does not plan to manufacture, although the firm will participate, in the case of pilot plants, where patentable process technology may be developed.

    With the need for energy alternatives, particularly for transportation, so urgent -- this appears to be a path that can insure rapid understanding of the reality and potential of this breakthrough science and technology.

    Modification of a plug-in Prius, so that it can be recharged by ZPE, appears at this time to be possible in about 12 months.

    The next step would involve replacement of the engine in a Prius with a compact generator producing upwards of 50 Kw. This could occur within a two year time frame

    MPI has begun preliminary design of a freeway capable, ZPE Powered, Concept car. If all goes well, such a ZPE powered, Concept car might appear at an auto show in the same time frame.

    Within five years, the first production ZPE powered automobiles could be coming off assembly lines.

    Toyota has shown sufficient creative engineering to suspect that, afer fully investigating the practicality of the technology, they might become one of the early automotive Strategic Partners.
     
  16. altaskier

    altaskier New Member

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    Re: Independent lab tests and a possible future scenario

    OK, these are testable claims, even if the scientific plausibility is not established beyond "believe me." Recharging the standard battery pack in a Prius (much less an augmented one) involves the delivery of more than 4 million Joules of energy (6.5 amp-hours at 202 volts times 3600 seconds per hour), let's say in a time of no more than 8 hours. The device should deliver this amount of excess energy beyond what it draws or has stored from a wall plug or other power source (thus avoiding a frequent trick of claimed perpetual motion machines). Independent verification of the validity of the method by January 2005, and 4 million joules within 8 hours by May 2005.

    My feeling is the same as it was in the early days of cold fusion: I really wish that it were to somehow turn out to be true, but I very much doubt it.
     
  17. Ray Moore

    Ray Moore Active Member

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    I'm sure you mean 2006, or else we're going to require time travel as well. Actually not a significant problem in this world of fantasy we're creating.

    Why hasn't this been bumped to Fred's about 20 posts ago?
     
  18. priusenvy

    priusenvy Senior Member

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    Re: Zero Point Energy ZPE - Opening a Path Beyond Fossil Fue

    I'm curious Overtone - do you type one-handed, or do you put your crack pipe down when you make a post?
     
  19. jchu

    jchu New Member

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    While ZPE currently fits into the heretical physics realm, and this thread really should be moved to FHOP, we should all still play nice and avoid personal attacks. :oops:
     
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