1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

PiP/Volt January 7-11 Switcheroo

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by Jeff N, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    Quick update:

    I downloaded the mileage and EV vs. gas usage records of the Volt from OnStar but had some problems with downloading the charging records. I'll try again tonight. Also cross checked a bit with downloaded ChargePoint records to compare with OnStar. I seem to see full charges taking about .5 - .75 kWh less in colder temperatures (40's) than in summer.

    This morning's 45.5 mile commute into work was all battery with an estimated 2 miles of range remaining. That's a surprise since yesterday I only got 40.6 miles of range. The temperatures were about the same (37F at work when I arrived).

    Not sure why the big change. I did add 3 psi to the tires yesterday from 38 to 41 (during a trip to the dealer 1.5 weeks ago an for oil change and tire rotation they reset the pressure to 38). Also, there were some slower 20-30 mph stretches on the highway and the last 3rd of the trip was light enough that the automatic headlights turned off.
     
    John Hatchett likes this.
  2. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    558
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I've noticed the same thing regarding charging consumption. I am assuming that in the summer there is about 500 watthours used to chill the battery during charging that isn't needed during the winter temperatures.

    I have also found that I get significantly more EV range when starting with slightly warmed batteries, ie right after charging.
     
  3. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2011
    2,027
    586
    65
    Location:
    CO
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A

    Did you charge on sunday? I find letting it sit for the weekend results in a reduced charge on monday unless I precondition. I think the battery is colder in the AM, and my battery logs so its at a lower overall SOC.. if I just unplug and replug it will charge for 20min or so.
     
  4. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    That could be part of it. I did a full recharge overnight (early Saturday morning) and then drove 6-8 miles on Saturday and didn't plug it back in until Sunday night to do a delayed top off charge. So, it would have only added 2-3 kWh to the battery early Monday morning and may have added less than usual on a cold-soaked battery.
     
  5. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    My assumption is that the battery just holds 500-750 Wh less due to chemistry and cold temperatures rather than the difference representing "wasted" temperature management overhead. Less energy held (charged into) in the battery is then part of the overall reason for lower EV range in colder temperatures.

    In other words, at least in part, you have less EV range in the winter not because of lower Wh per mile efficiency but just because the battery can't hold quite as much charge as it can during warmer weather.
     
    lensovet likes this.
  6. retired4999

    retired4999 Prius driver since 2005

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    2,652
    625
    15
    Location:
    Eau Claire, Wi.
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    My 42" LED just got for Christmas also said do not lay flat.
     
    priuskitty likes this.
  7. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    558
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    You guys must have bought one of those Asian models or something. Mine was designed and manufactured in America.
     
  8. priuskitty

    priuskitty PIP FAN

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    2,286
    335
    0
    Location:
    Clawson, Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    yup, just like the PIP's we bought:D
     
    lensovet likes this.
  9. retired4999

    retired4999 Prius driver since 2005

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    2,652
    625
    15
    Location:
    Eau Claire, Wi.
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Yep!
     
  10. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    Unexpectedly good results continued:

    I managed to charge at 120V this morning at work and then grabbed some additional time at 240V on an AVCon adapter that a LEAF owner has. Altogether, I got an extra 36 miles or so of predicted range.

    After leaving work I did some minor shopping and then headed home on highway 280 which goes along the coastal mountain range. Up in the hills my battery gave up and I switched to gas for the last 25.7 miles. I ended up burning 0.46 gallons for about 55-56 hybrid mpg.

    There might have been a small altitude drop on the way toward home but not much. My engine usually starts on flat highway on 101 at coastal elevation (50 ft. or less) and then ends at my home at around 600 ft. elevation so my typical gas mpg is arguably artificially low.

    Overall, I did 78 miles on battery today and the last 25.7 on gas for a total trip of 103.7 and a total gas consumption of 220 mpg. I don't have an OnStar record of my work charging today but I seemed to do well so I'm guessing it will be 25-27 kWh / 100 miles today.

    I'm still working on the records from last week.
     
    John Hatchett likes this.
  11. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    The temperature was 37F degrees again when I arrived at work on battery power. This time traffic was clear although I traveled behind a truck (not closely) at 53 mph for a few miles knowing that I otherwise might end up switching to gas before getting to my destination.

    As I pulled in at the coffee place 1/2 mile from work I was showing 1 mile remaining in the battery after 44.9 miles of driving. After I restarted the car it decided to begin in hybrid mode but I made it the remaining 1/2 mile to my parking spot without starting the engine.
     
    John Hatchett likes this.
  12. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    Evening Volt update:

    I was able to get about 26 miles of estimated range (kWh TBD) in a single 120V charging session at work I started after arriving at work.

    With one side trip after lunch, I ended up driving 69.9 miles of EV and 45.3 miles in hybrid mode for a total of 115.2 miles on 0.89 gallons of gas.

    That works out to 51 mpg hybrid (50 mpg if you don't count the 0.8 miles on battery in hybrid mode between coffee and work this morning that I noted in my previous post). That's a combined total of 131 mpg for today's drive.

    This time the gas engine started on flat road with under 100 ft. elevation before heading up through the highway 280 rolling hills again and ending at my house with about 600 ft. elevation. I was getting about 52.5 mpg before heading up the final mile or two of elevation gain.

    Now, I'll get back to work on writing up last week's comparative efficiency numbers. Oh, and also changing my profile picture from PiP to Volt... :)
     
    John Hatchett likes this.
  13. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    14,487
    2,996
    0
    Location:
    Fort Lee, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Austingreen did the calculation here. I have not checked his math.

    PiP is not a perfect plugin for everyone and I have never claimed that. You seem so worked up with misunderstanding of my position. It is a cleaner plugin for most people while providing a midsize interior and cargo.

    See the states where PiP is cleaner than Volt.

    [​IMG]



    Yes, there are 13 states where PiP emission is slightly more than a regular 50 MPG Prius. There are 32 states where a regular Prius emit less than the Volt.

    Greenhouse Gas Emission.png


    I mentioned the charge time whenever someone brought up the EV range, with the more the better mentality. EV miles don't magically appear. It takes time to charge it, especially when Volt can blow that away in 15 minutes of driving.

    There is a penalty for not charging with the Volt (37 MPG with premium gas). PiP has none since it still gets 50 MPG on regular gas. We saw that penalty effect with devprius not being able to charge it at work one time. Plugin is like an umbilical cord for the Volt due to EV biased design. For PiP with a balanced design, it is an opportunity.

    The battery life is another issue. The longer it sits with higher SOC, the faster the battery is going to degrade, especially in hot temp. PiP can stay at lower SOC for those time when charging is not required.

    So, Volt is a better car for you. You are the exception rather than the rule. In general, PiP is cleaner, more efficient (both fuels), provide more interior and cost less to purchase.
     
  14. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    14,487
    2,996
    0
    Location:
    Fort Lee, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    The reason is simple. He drove his Volt within PiP's EV capabilities. Those are the conditions where using electricity makes sense. PiP choose fuels based on the driving conditions. Volt chooses base on the range. They are two different animals.

    You can drive Volt at 100 mph with electricity. In that case, it wouldn't make sense from the emission, cost of battery or the charging time perspective.
     
  15. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    Morning update:

    Exact same commute as yesterday.

    end of story.
     
  16. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2011
    2,027
    586
    65
    Location:
    CO
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A

    The point I was making ,without trying not seem confrontational (as I am sensitive to the fact the the mods moved this thread to PiP from the Volt forum), is that that the Ev efficiency of both vehichles was about the same. That is contradicting people like you claim that claim the PiP is more efficient in EV. This data strong shows, that your claim that the PiP is really more efficient in EV, showing it is not consistent with our first peice of direct comparison with real-world data.

    From an emissions point of the, the Volt at 100mph on EV still makes sense (well as much sense as anyone driving 100mph) from an emission Point-of-view -- unless you have data to suggest the losses in the Volt increase more rapidly with speed than an ICE-based car's losses as a function of speed. In fact I would expect the EV mode has increasing relative efficiency as a function of speed, as the ICE-based cars will quickly leave their ideal BSFC region, but the EV drop in efficiency is very small. Charge time and the battery cost are not related to speed of travel -- once again you are spewing FUD.
     
  17. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    558
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    So Jeff, based on your first hand experience, which of the two plugin vehicles consumes the least amount of gasoline for your weekly commute?

    Next question would be which of the two has the least operating cost for the weekly commute?
     
  18. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,233
    4,228
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    USB, your data is all highly dependent upon driving distance, is it not?
    Also, your graph doesn't show how many emmissions a Volt or PiP emit. It shows ow much they would have emitted in 2010, right?

    To really make a good decision, based solely on GHGs, a potential buyer needs to know:
    How much the PiP emits when running on electricity in their local.
    How much the PiP emits when running on gas in their local.
    How much the Volt emits when running on electricity in their local.
    How much the Volt emits when running on gas in their local.
    How often the driver would drive beyond the EV range of the respective cars.
     
    John Hatchett likes this.
  19. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    558
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    That should be "How much the ... emits when running on the electricity they generate or purchase."

    Many people have the option to purchase renewables or install generation and when you can efficiently use 400kWh a month the economics further align with the eco-nomics.
     
  20. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    The Volt will clearly consume less gasoline. I used around 4.6-4.8 gallons (from memory) in the PiP for 4 complete commute days. I will probably use less than half that amount while using the same level of diligence around opportunity charging during the day. I was getting a total of about 85-95 mpg in the PiP and with the equivalent driving and charging effort I get around 180-240 mpg in the Volt for my commute pattern.

    As for comparing fueling costs, CO2 emissions, etc. I will cover that in a future post.
     
    cycledrum and John Hatchett like this.