Featured 2016 Chevy Volt Attack Ads target LEAF, Prius!

Nice find on the specs. I wonder what usable SOC and power are on that battery. It seems heavy compared to the ford

The ford battery is 106 lbs, 35 kw, 1.4 kwh and much smaller than the 1.5 kwh nimh. Scalling down to 746 wh, we get half the hybrid battery which should be similar to that alpha battery. Its only 19 kw and 56 lbs. So the new chemistry is probably heavier and bigger, but provides a higher C rate (higher power to energy ratio). It may be a less expensive chemistry too.

Panasonic/Toyota have had 4.5 years since the alpha. I would have guessed at a 1.1 kwh weighing about 83lbs, but perhaps this is a whole new chemistry.

 

So many have given Toyota grief for taking so long, forgetting there are new lithium chemistries on the way...

 

Well that is kinda what I criticised gm for in this ad. It misses because it will be a toyota option.

I don't think it misses with nimh being old tech, it is, but who really cares once the prius has the current tech as an option.

 

I converted them into a table:
Gen 4 Staff Manual (In Japanese) =/ Specs/Design/Other Info | Page 16 | PriusChat

Bob Wilson

 

well in our businesses, we make $$ via numbers. That's our "proof" - what are the numbers. For 2014 - here's some numbers - plugin units sold;
Leaf .... $30,200
Volt ..... $18,805
PiP...... $13,264

.

 

???

 

Toyota have said that NiMh is better for low temp conditions and regen brake absorption. Not to mention highly recyclability. They take the life cycle emission very seriously.

 

Might have meant to leave out the "$" signs and instead list these as units sold for that year. But in that case, the correct 2014 unit sales comparison for the prior argument (NiMH vs. Li-Ion "tech") would then instead be:

Li-Ion "New Tech"
Leaf .... 30,200
Volt ..... 18,805
PiP...... 13,264

NiMH "Old Stuff"
Prius Liftback... 122,776
Prius C ............. 41,979
Prius V ............. 34,989

Remember, no PiP in the commercial.

 

From a tiny percentage in 2011 lithium in hybrids and plug-ins will soon pass 50%

2012 33%
2013 44%
2014 48%

That last 50% will be slow as it is held by one company and redesigns can take it over 6 years, but, as has been pointed out in this thread

Gen IV prius was designed for both, and toyota can shift the mix toward limh or even do a lithium polymer refresh during its lifetime.
The next prius phv is going to be lithium. Toyota is building lithium capacity and even buying lithium reserves.

In 2025 I doubt we will still see nimh in a new car design, but it takes awhile to transition.

New tech doesn't make your old tech work worse. In a car like the prius there is very little difference today. In the future lithium costs will help drive down the hybrid premium. Lifecycle emissions as well as old water and land pollution are lower with lithium too, so there is an environmental benefit.

 

agreed - and there was no Liftback - C - or V in the commercial. IIRC, there were no distinctions re traction pack chemistry either. Just saying - as far as plugins go . . . . follow the numbers. Even with a smaller profit margin - you sell in higher quantities .... yes higher by 5 figures, then it's likely that the "$$" will be there as are the volume numbers. I'm a fan of all 3 plugins ... and I'm glad to see all 3 plugin vehicles above, being sold to customers that find their choice to be a great fit. It's too bad GM finds it necessary to bad mouth the competition as a method to overcome their 2nd place in the market. Different plugins fit different customers' different needs. Hopefully, gen II PiP's will be sold nationwide, when they finally arrive. Had it not been relegated to CARB states only - who knows - maybe the Leaf wouldn't be in the #1 sales position for the 2014 year.
.

 

ah, it was the dollar signs that confused me.

 

is it safe to say that no one is going to build a bev with nimh?

 

NiMH has proven to be a great choice for deeper market penetration with hybrids. It will continue to contribute to that role too.

Lithium (a variety of chemistries) will lead the way for plugging in.

 

If we were looking at Japan or Europe, the v numbers would be in the new tech table.

How recyclable something is seems to be a factor of, or at least heavily influenced by, the demand to having it recycled. We can recycle Styrofoam, but the cost of the special compactors and transport costs means it isn't regularly done.

Nickle is a valuable metal; it could be called semi-precious. We once used it for money until its worth got too high. Now it is important for stainless steel, which we make more of than batteries. There is a strong financial interest in recycling NiMH batteries.

Lithium ore is, well, dirt cheap. In part because of its relative abundance. There isn't a big incentive to develop an efficiency way to recycle the myriad phone and computer batteries out there. Car packs can change that. They are large. Making them easier to collect and concentrate than phone batteries; efficiency in the supply chain. The cells can also have a more uniform size and shape; making automation of the recycling process easier.

If BASF's claim pan out, we might see a NiMH BEV or plug in, but I think it unlikely. By the time that could happen, Li-ion will be the norm and established, and still have a cost advantage.

 

that's the problem with gm's ad. it only makes sense to people unaware of the differences. taking advantage of public ignorance is a long held advertising standard though.

was it pepsi and coke that broke down the 'don't mention the competition' barrier? at least their ads were light hearted, whereas gm's are light headed.

 

Its an awful ineffective ad.

Here is how you show off tech

 

i like comedy. don't know if it sells, since there is so little in advertising, but it just may be that it's the hardest thing to pull off. singing and dancing seems to be the most prolific type of television advertising, and the ad co's. shouldn't receive a dime for the lack of creativity. it's like they wake up and say, 'i have no ideas today, let's go with the old standby'. how the customers fall for it is what amazes me.

 

or creatively bad, I should be paid for having to watch that people person prius family ad. What does buttface have to do with the cars again? At least this monstronsity was web only I think.

 

It doesn't matter how or why. The goal for Prius is to reduce life cycle emission. If something better comes up, Toyota will surely use it.

One can't just look at the weight, power, size, cost, or carbon footprint from manufacturing to end of life. All of them have to be understood and considered. Then, one may understand why Toyota is not blindly switching all hybrids to Lithium.

Some Lithium chemistry can be suitable for hybrids. But they lose their (energy density, cost, etc.) advantages. For example, we see Sonata hybrid with Lithium taking up more trunk space than Camry hybrid with NiMh.