1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

3 million without power in Texas

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Ronald Doles, Feb 16, 2021.

  1. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,184
    10,087
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Here is a different summary:

    "POINTING FINGERS
    Although some are attempting to pin the blame on one fuel source or another, the reality is that the Arctic temperatures are hobbling fossil fuels and renewable energy alike, ...

    WHAT HAPPENED?
    So how did such a powerhouse get knocked so thoroughly offline?
    We may not know the full definitive reason for a while, but a few things are clear:

    • Obviously, Texas winters ain't usually this cold. The state's infrastructure is simply not prepared for a deep freeze.
    • Critics of renewables will try to blame wind turbines, but experts note that wind makes up a small share of Texas' energy consumption.
    • It's also worth pointing out that a lot of chillier places have wind turbines that don't buckle in the cold — hello, Iowa; hej hej, Denmark — they just need to be winterized, a step experts said Texas has skipped.
    • The Lone Star State is ... all alone. Texas made a conscious decision to isolate its energy grid from the rest of the country. That means that when things are running smoothly, it can't export excess power to neighboring states. And in the current crisis, it can't import power either. 

    In other words: "When it comes to electricity, what happens in Texas stays in Texas," said Dan Cohan, associate professor of environmental engineering at Rice University. "That has really come back to bite us."
"
     
    Rmay635703 likes this.
  2. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,704
    6,504
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Yep.
    That's why the first question I asked @jerrymildred concerned his "Hurricane Plan."

    Tampa probably doesn't have much of a need for de-icing equipment for their windmills, but there is a 100-percent chance that there will be another Major Hurricane there, and in addition to protecting the cells from 150-MPH pine cones, one presumes that the mountings should be storm rated, else "going solar" might mean something else entirely.
    Major hurricanes also mean that there's a 100-percent chance of a wide-spread, long term power loss.
    Not a big deal if you have a plan to save your PVCs, but you're still gonna need a place to store some amps so that you can have power at night.

    Like TX.....easy enough to plan for.
    You just have to PLAN for it. ;)

    When I go solar....(there's NO "if") I'm going to make sure that yanking down the panels pre-storm are a part of my hurricane preps unless prevailing "wisdom" assures me that they're hardened enough to remain on the roof
    (ground?)

    YMMV
     
    Merkey and jerrymildred like this.
  3. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2016
    11,491
    14,102
    0
    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Florida has pretty extreme standards for hurricane proofing new construction. On thing I will be asking, though, is what wind loads the panels and rails are designed to withstand and when I should take them down. It's only 20 panels so not a huge job. From the pictures I've seen, they look like they should be pretty solid.

    Tampa, by the way, seems to be in a spot that hurricanes tend to avoid. But if a major storm ever comes up the bay, that'll cost trillions of dollars. Many trillions. If you've been here, you can imagine why.

    Our last big one was Irma a little over three years ago. It was bad to our east. At our house, the lights blipped once. Part of our 6' high wooden fence in the back yard got pushed part way over. That was it. We've had way worse thunderstorms. Other parts of the state got brutalized. Folks up in the panhandle seem to get a hurricane or two every year. Same on the east coast. If we do get an extended outage, the Prime will easily keep our food cold and run a fan and some lights at night. In fact, I recon that I could charge up the traction battery in the daytime and run the fridge and light just off battery at night if the cloud cover isn't bad. And in my experience, the skies clear quickly after hurricanes. I've been through several in Honduras and a few here in FL.

    Still, you never know when a big one could take dead aim at us. But, we have no trees than can land on us. We are way above and storm surge and we are not in any kind of flood zone.
     
  4. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,184
    10,087
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Somewhere in the specs for my solar panels were snow load ratings vs mounting style. Portrait vs landscape orientation on 2 vs 3 mounting rails. Most places are fine with just 2 rails, me included, but the places experiencing multi-foot snow loads need 3 rails. Rail spacings, and wind loading specs were somewhere in there too.

    ... and with heavier loads, the rails need more / closer roof attachments.

    ... and the standing seam metal roofing needs more / closer mounting clips to hold it down.

    This is probably something you can ask the installers, and the more advance notice, the better.
     
    jerrymildred likes this.
  5. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,195
    4,184
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    From what I have read, the panels are typically tougher than the roof they are covering.
    For hurricane zones, it seems the bigger issue is the lift wind underneath the panels can provide.
    As such, good building practices (not to mention building codes) require additional strength in securing the panels to the roof.
     
    fuzzy1 likes this.
  6. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    2,455
    1,703
    0
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    ----USA----
    Dominoes. Gasoline outages are a big problem in San Antonio, TX right now. One of my colleagues needs to get out to go to his mother’s funeral but multiple flights have been cancelled over the past 4 days so is trying to drive after the last snowstorm is over tonight. No gas at any gas station in the vicinity so nearby friends offering to fill up with spare gasoline. It’s a start, but it’s unclear what the gas station situation will be after the first several hours of the drive.
     
    donbright and jerrymildred like this.
  7. Ronald Doles

    Ronald Doles Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2019
    230
    280
    0
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    I was at my daughters house in Cape Coral which was close to ground zero for Irma. I flew down to either hunker down and stay with her or help her drive back to Columbus to stay with us. When they called for a mandatory evacuation of the barrier islands we booked it. I75N was a parking lot till we got out of Florida. The then governor, Rick Scott, assured us that there would be gasoline available along I75 and it was except there were extremely long lines at every interchange.

    We drove back down 8 days later and still had no power. It was amazing that my daughters home was untouched but the neighbor on her west side had their lanai torn off and it had blown over the roof and landed in the street. The neighbor on the east has a pool with a cage and a tree from out of nowhere blew threw her pool cage and landed in my daughters back yard.

    I hooked up a 5kw generator and it would just run the home A.C. and the refrigerator but it made life bearable. Problem with the generator was, none of the gas stations had power either. We only had one 5 gallon can and the few stores that were open were sold out of them. The nearest open gas station was about 5 miles away and all the traffic lights were out making every intersection a 4 way stop. Not every driver treats those intersections as a 4 way stop. The generator was burning about 1 gallon per hour so those many trips were frustrating. We went an additional 2 days without power.

    The few restaurants that finally opened had hand written short menu's to get people through faster.

    I saw a city truck with a snowblade pushing the downed palm trees out of the streets. Unreal scenerio. You feel like you are in a 3rd world country without power and you don't know what you need until you have been through one of those. Gas cans would be at the top of the list.

    Attached are a couple of pictures from that week.
    typical 7-11.jpg [ neighbors drive 2.jpg
     
    jerrymildred likes this.
  8. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2016
    11,491
    14,102
    0
    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I watched a video of an installation. They must be strong. The installers walk on the edges of the panels where they butt up against each other.

    They tell me that that's the reason they keep the panels well back from the edge of the roof.

    It was indeed nasty over there. In fact, we have friends who have a villa in the Bahamas. They STILL don't have electricity. The company doing my system is putting in an off-grid system right now for them.

    But I think the ultimate was Andrew. A friend's son lived in Homestead. He got in touch with my friend and said something like, "Dad, don't try to come help. There are no houses, no street signs, no trees, no landmarks of any kind. Just piles of lumber. We'd never find each other."
     
    donbright and fuzzy1 like this.
  9. jdenenberg

    jdenenberg EE Professor

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    3,842
    1,830
    1
    Location:
    Trumbull, CT
    Vehicle:
    2020 Prius
    Model:
    LE AWD-e
    When superstorm Sandy hit the NE, I was without utility power for about a week. My generator covered my needs (and those of several neighbors that needed refrigeration for meds. The problem was getting gasoline to keep my generator running as none of the local gas station owners bothered to install backup generators so that they could provide services in an emergency. I had to drive in my Prius about 30 miles each way to get gasoline.

    JeffD
     
  10. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    2,581
    1,601
    0
    Location:
    Somewhere in Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2013 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    N/A
    as I’ve allude to in another post the lower 50% of cars on the road would only need about 4kwhrs a day to do all their travel

    That is like 3% of a homes electrical demands and completely meaningless if we include commercial loads

    The bigger problem is the poor building standards in Texas (compared to a northern state)
    And northern Texas over reliance on sub standard outdated resistance heating without a backup and poorly thought out grid planning.

    EVs play no role in this discussion,
    unless you understand an EV with a full battery could be used for a few days of emergency power for a few household items which is only a good thing not a bad.

    A vehicle like my Volt can be a home backup generator for a week with $150 of parts added which is even better.
     
    #30 Rmay635703, Feb 17, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
    fuzzy1 and Zythryn like this.
  11. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,008
    3,510
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    108,038
    49,114
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    and people, if they count for anything
     
  13. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,008
    3,510
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    That's what the first-mentioned carbon monoxide is affecting.
     
  14. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    2,581
    1,601
    0
    Location:
    Somewhere in Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2013 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    N/A
    85F32327-411E-4D3A-8784-36FC00904407.png
    In the grand scheme of things there are people who earn a Darwin Award every year due to operating vehicles in buildings and running charcoal and camp stoves indoors.
    No idea how you address stopping the guy using combustion indoors like with a charcoal grill in an enclosed space, seems like that concept has been explained ad nauseum including right on the package.

    More worrysome are the unintentional ones caused by malfunctioning equipment but in this case that does not appear to be the cause in TX.
     
    jerrymildred likes this.
  15. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,704
    6,504
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Natural selection WORKS, but it's messy and takes a long time.
    I'm thinking that this is a lawyer problem.

    THEIR solution would be to get some jury all weepy-eyed and knock a generator manufacturer on the head with an 8-figure damages award. Then.....somebody will figure out that you can make generators with onboard CO detection (THEY have to breathe too) and the in-house lawyers working for the manufacturers will make the engineers put one on board.....and charge the customer an extra buck or two.

    Nobody really likes scavengers, but they do serve a valuable ecologic function.

    Dot.gov is messy AND ineffective.
    They would just ban gasoline generators.
     
    #35 ETC(SS), Feb 18, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
  16. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2018
    6,899
    6,528
    1
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    To be fair they've long been powerless; now they haven't got electricity either.
     
  17. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,704
    6,504
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
  18. Ronald Doles

    Ronald Doles Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2019
    230
    280
    0
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    I was hoping that after I installed hurricane shutters on my daughters Florida home, she would qualify for a discount on her homeowners. After it was inspected, I was surprised to find out that the biggest danger from hurricane force winds is the breaching of the garage door. Once it fails, the wind pressure exerted on approximately 24' x 24' garage ceiling area can force the roof to lift.

    There are hurricane rated garage doors with stronger tracks, rollers. They have heavy duty cross beams on each of the door sections like the one shown here.
    garage door track.JPG
     
  19. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2016
    11,491
    14,102
    0
    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Too true, @Ronald Doles. Any place the wind van get into the house can raise the roof right off. And the garage door is the weakest and biggest point. My door has ribs about 3" deep and it a one car garage.
     
  20. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,184
    10,087
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    At the most recent word I see, Texan customers without electric power have dropped to under 400,000, less than a tenth of the peak.

    Mass winter energy delivery failures are not new to the region. At the peak of the February 1-5, 2011 event that also struck Arizona and New Mexico, 1.3 million customers lost electric power, and 4.4 million lost it at some time during the event. According the resulting federal report:

    "Between February 1 and February 4, a total of 210 individual generating units within the footprint of the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, Inc. (ERCOT), which covers most of Texas, experienced either an outage, a derate, or a failure to start."

    "The storm, however, was not without precedent. There were prior severe cold weather events in the Southwest in 1983, 1989, 2003, 2006, 2008, and 2010. The worst of these was in 1989, the prior event most comparable to 2011. That year marked the first time ERCOT resorted to system-wide rolling blackouts to prevent more widespread customer outages. In all of those prior years, the natural gas delivery system experienced production declines; however, curtailments to natural gas customers in the region were essentially limited to the years 1989 and 2003. "


    Lack of adequate winterization was one of many issues. We'll have to watch the post-event reviews to see how well they met or followed the lessons and recommendations from this earlier event.


    Not quite all of Texas is under ERCOT, several border communities and areas tie instead to the rest of the continent. Here are some ERCOT maps:

    upload_2021-2-18_13-45-45.png

    upload_2021-2-18_13-46-55.png
     
    jerrymildred likes this.