AMSOIL used in transmission fluid...not happy

If someone really cares they can contact Amsoil and ask them why the don't recommend their WS substitute for Prii. My casual observation over the years is that Amsoil is fairly agressive about recommending their products for cars, even when the Amsoil product hasn't been qualified agaist the specs the manufacturer calls out. If Amsoil doesn't recommend their WS substitute for Prii, that is a big red flag.

It could be that Amsoil doesn't realize the Prius transmission isn't a mechanical CVT, or maybe Amsoil knows something.

 

Nobody I think is suggesting that there was malice or a high degree of negligence on behalf of the shop here.

However it comes down to an open forum and recommendations.

Since AMSOIL themselves has as of yet, not offered a recommendation for their own product, coupled with the OP's unhappiness with AMSOIL being used? I would recommend changing it. It really is that simple.

Also?

"You could do the community a favor by running this for 30K miles and running an oil analysis on it."

I would never suggest someone use an unrecommended fluid, for 30,000 miles as a test.

Yes, the results might be of interest, but IMO let AMSOIL run that test...

Unless you have a spare Prius or two...running long term result tests is something I would not recommend to the OP.

 

While I was expecting to hear that opinion and position from your mechanic, I understand as well why you went to a dealership to have it drained and flushed. There's no room to experiment when it comes to flying.

Thanks to everyone for the great debate!

 

As an Amsoil customer for other items and someone with over 30k on their 2010 Prius (and soon due for a drain and fill), I have emailed Amsoil to ask why they do not recommend this product in the Prius given that they cross-reference it as a replacement for the Toyota WS fluid. Hopefully they'll provide some insightful information as to why as opposed to some "it's not been thoroughly tested" answer. I'll post back here with what they tell me.

 

As per AMSOIL: As the Prius has a CVT type transmission, we do not recommend an AMSOIL product for use in it or any other CVT type transmission.

I asked them if there was a specific reason for this. This just seems like a "we don't want to do it" type response, IMO. I also asked if there was some major formulation difference, because the WS is what Toyota specifies and they state the ATL is the Amsoil equivalent of WS. From experience, I know they don't always update their recommendations efficiently, and if someone saw the ATL as the equivalent of the WS they might get it and just figure that it wasn't updated yet. I wish they would have been more specific in their response.

 

I have been beating on one of the tech support guys there. I do believe it is a simple oversight on their part. For example, they do recommend ATL for the Camry Hybrid:

2011 TOYOTA CAMRY 2.4L 4-cyl Engine Code 2AZ-FXE LUBRICANTS & FLUIDS: Lookup Another Vehicle Engine Oil
Grade 1......API*Maximum Performance SAE 0W-20 Signature Series 100% Synthetic Motor Oil (ASMQT)
Performance Plus SAE 0W-20 XL Extended Life Synthetic Motor Oil (XLZQT)
Performance SAE 0W-20 OE Synthetic Motor Oil (OEZQT)
All TEMPS......0W-20, 5W-20 [1]
Automatic Transmission,CVT......WS
Low Viscosity Synthetic ATF (ATLQT)

 

I'm very tempted to turn around and throw this back in the guys face that told me they don't recommend anything for CVT. In fact, I am going to question it, because it contradicts what he told me.

Thanks for that information, because I would be inclined to agree with your sentiment that it's an oversight.

 

Maybe they looked at Toyota's maintenance schedule for the Prius2, and because no ATF change is shown then they've not actually bothered to look into its suitability?

I wonder if Toyota have included ATF changes as part of the schedule in the Camry?

 

I specified to them that I had a 2010, so I sure hope they looked in the right spot. However, it seemed more to me that his statement was a blanket statement vs one that actually involved any research into the question.

Whether the changes are in the schedule or not should be irrelevant for what they would/could recommend as a product.

I'm torn between Seilerts hunch of it being an over sight, and between them just not wanting to look into the CVT side of things.

 

Seilerts, AMsoil claimed that's an incorrect recommendation and being removed. However, they also claim that they're doing more investigating into the subject in hopes they can make more recommendations. Maybe we helped light a fire under them.

 

I've been talking to one of their engineers and they expect to make a decision next week. Basically, everything that has "CVT" in its name is presumed to be a belt/clutch type like Honda, which requires a highly specific fluid. The Camry slipped through the filter.

I did point out that they are losing market share to Redline and OEMs, a situation which will only get worse as more AMSOil users like you switch over to hybrids with this type of transmission. They have listened and are taking this seriously.

 

Has there been any decision by Amsoil?

 

Toyota recommends that Automatic Transmission Fluid, that meets their Toyota WS specification, be used in this P410 transmission. Although some spec sheets call it a CVT transmission, an engineer would NOT call it a CVT type transmission. The CVT terminology has caused quite a bit of confusion and misunderstanding. The mistake in the application guidance has been corrected on AMSOIL's web site.

AMSOIL "ATL" Automatic Transmission Fluid product is recommended for Toyota WS applications, by AMSOIL and that is documented in this ATL specification sheet:
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2634.pdf

This product was introduced in March of 2009, and has always been recommended for applications that require Toyota WS spec. fluids.

 

Let me update the record:

This is correct and the details can be found:
2003 Prius - Cold Weather and Transaxle

We know the NHW11 transmission had at least one set of gears mounted on bushing that were replaced by bearings in the NHW20. But both the NHW11 and NHW20 use a "silent chain" and every link is likely to use bushings. The silent chain disappeared with the 2010 model. I suspect the only stator copper at risk are the soldered joints since the rest is potted along with the wire coating.

I still have a balance with my oil testing service. If you'll contact me via PM, I would be happy to have my oil testing service test your sample. My test was done after 7,000 miles and the more miles you put on it, the better. However, we also need a sample of the current, virgin Amsoil of the type the mechanic used. The reason is oil blenders do change the ratios an my sample was at least 5 years old.

Today, Amsoil claims a different viscosity range:

	Column 1
0	[th]40C[th]100C[th]source[tr][td]37.3[/td][td]7.5[/td][td]2006 PdMA test of Amsoil ATF[/td][tr][td]29.8[/td][td]6.0[/td][td]2009 Amsoil reported specifications[/td]

Source: g2634.pdf

I notice the newer Amsoil specifications include a copper spec that I don't remember seeing before.

Bob Wilson

 

The Toyota Type WS has exceptional 24.6(40C) and 6.7(100C) viscosity that I've not found in the published specifications of other oils. The closest I could find was aircraft turbine oil. In viscosity alone, Type WS is a remarkable product. The cold temperature viscosity controls transmission drag at temperatures close to or below freezing.

Bob Wilson

 

I have an MG2 silent chain that I can send you for inspection, PM your mailing address.

Regarding viscosity, I do agree with you that WS is the best, and I do wonder if that is the reason that Redline pulled their recommendation for D6 == WS, given a 30.7 visc. at 40C. But that is more likely to be a problem in a conventional automatic. Nevertheless, the main points are (1) conductive properties of ATFs do not cause failures and (2) AMSOil is not likely to be materially better or worse than ATF WS.

IMHO, trans failures are caused by assembly errors at the factory, dirty fluid that causes oxidation, or a bit of metal that lodges in a winding and eventually wears the conformal coating away due to vibration.

 

Personally, I wouldn't trust an independent mechanic to do anything of significance to a Prius. I do most everything myself. For this exact reason, it happenes all the time, everyday.​

And who are you to suggest that someone make their car a guinea pig for the benefit of the community? Are you gonna pay this guy's bills and replace his transmission if a problem does arise?​

He needs to get that fluid changed and changed now. Who knows how long the mechanic will still be in business, and that he would assume any responsibility in the future. I guarantee that mechanic would do everything possibly to sherk any responsibility for any problem that may arise. Then what leg does the OP have to stand on? Hold a gun to his head? I think not. Litigation, yet another headache and expense while he is dealing with also having a broken down car and repair bills and inconvience?​

Why don't you do an AMSOIL test on your car and let the community know how it turns out.​

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Read more: http://priuschat.com/threads/amsoil-used-in-transmission-fluid-not-happy.107236/#ixzz20c17zywv​

 

double post

 

Seilert is a bit more than a shade-tree mechanic or a guy who wrenches his own vehicle for fluid changes. I think you are misunderstanding the point he is trying to make... Rock on gentlemen!

Safe trips

EVO ? 2[/I]