Featured Beginning of the end for the Prius?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by nfschlaack, Dec 22, 2018.

  1. nfschlaack

    nfschlaack Junior Member

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    Greetings everyone,

    So I am referring to just the Prius itself, not including the C and V. However, I made this prediction a while back. Toyota has said for quite some time that they want hybrid models for all vehicles in their line up. I've said that once the Corolla gets a hybrid model - the Prius is dead. Looks like Corolla Hybrid is indeed coming in 2020.

    2020 Toyota Corolla Hybrid at debuts L.A. Auto Show - Autoblog

    (my apologies if this link has been posted already)

    Then I found this article earlier today regarding Toyota getting serious about an all electric platform.

    Toyota Plans Long-Range Electric Car For 2022 | Report, News | Digital Trends

    I've had my 2004 since new and still love it, but with this news I truly believe that the main Prius days are now numbered.

    Regards
     
    #1 nfschlaack, Dec 22, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
  2. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Prius will continue to evolve. It's a hatchback that's morphing into the higher end of mainstream. We've seen the large screen and more comfortable seating in back introduced, in addition to leading the plug-in hybrid choices. Corolla will be a complimentary offering, staying in the very affordable category for those still seeking a sedan.

    I have witnessed all of the generational offerings over the years... 1997, 2000, 2003, 2009, 2012, 2015, 2017... and have owned 5 of those Prius models over the past 18 years. Each upgrade delivered continued improvement to the hybrid system, while staying true to the mission of decreased emissions & consumption, keeping the design affordable, and adapting to the changing market.

    Seeing Toyota diversify Prius into more models and spreading the technology to all of their common vehicles is what everyone (customers, dealers, stockholders, employees, and executives) all want. That's what keeps the profit coming without major disruption to the business flow... which now, is more critical than ever with such political & economic risk growing.

    Getting people to abandon traditional vehicles is key. We see how common it is for owners to have an expectation of continuous improvement once they've taken that initial step. Problem is, there must be variety and it must be affordable. This is basic economics many early-adopters fail to recognize, especially with respect to tax-credit dependency and infrastructure shortcomings.

    In other words, Prius will remain viable for years to come, leading the way for the rest of the fleet.
     
    #2 john1701a, Dec 22, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
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  3. RomanCro

    RomanCro New Member

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    We all must done are share. There is no one single person i introduced to Prime, show them my car, perks, EV, home charging, let them drive it, not single one disliked the car. More buyer emerhet from this.

    SM-G950F ?
     
  4. Tsiah

    Tsiah Junior Member

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    At this stage in the game, I don't really understand why anyone would continue developing hybrids. BEVs or FCEVs are where we need to be going. Porsche (I get that it's high end) just built a battery charger that will add over 200 miles of range in 15 minutes and they've been using it with their test Mission E. Why Toyota isn't getting more into EVs is beyond me.
     
  5. royrose

    royrose Active Member

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  6. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    Kind of strange that we have this recent "End of Days For Prius" psyche creeping in.
    I just don't think so.

    The recent interview between Russell Frost and Prius chief engineer Shoichi Kaneko, it sounds to me like Toyota is still committed to what the Prius represents. Globally responsible automobiles.
    Toyota has made Prius into an iconic representation of that concept. With Prius it's like a brand name, that becomes the product. Like a bathroom tissue is called Kleenex.
    For many people, mention "Hybrid" and even if they know somewhat what that means, their first thought is "Prius".

    I can't really predict the future. But I think Hybrids are still a great product for the times we are living in right now. The Prius is the most efficient mass produced, available hybrid on the market. I don't think it's end time is nigh.

    I think the Corolla Hybrid looks great. We'll see how it does in sales, and how it affects "Prius".

    While I optimistically don't think Prius is in any immediate threat, I was listening to a Toyota radio ad last weekend on the radio. It was for a Holidaython event or such, it was one of the "Jan" ads. At some point in the commercial she proclaims you should get into your local Toyota Dealer for great deals on.........
    And I think she mentioned just about every common Toyota model, EXCEPT for Corolla and Prius.
    I don't know what that means, if anything, but I did find it interesting.
     
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  7. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    I think they were mentioning cars they have excess inventory of and room for discounts on.
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i predicted that prius days would be numbered back in '97 when they first came out in japan. looks like i'm right as always
     
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  9. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    haven't you heard about toyota's secret bev development lab? you're not spending enough time here

    going to blow porsche, tesla and everyone out of the water. you heard it here first.

    and of course, they're way out in front on fcev. by 2020, the country will be mostly fcev
     
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  10. Stevevee

    Stevevee Active Member

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    Well at least the latest model doesn't look so ugly, speaking to the new LOL and model.

    After driving this Prius v for 5 1/2 years, I'm always amazed at how much more comfortable I am driving a regular model, especially our Camry Hybrid. I've had no issues at all with this car, so nothing to complain about there. But I would gravitate towards the all-new Corolla and Camry more than the Prius, sales suggest most agree as they have plummeted the last two years. It was mostly the looks, and also lower gas prices. We need a new car in April, and will probably gravitate towards the normal ICE models as we want the long term dependability. We're still a little nervous after the '07 battery went, but contrary to experts, the single cell solution worked wonderfully. So far anyway.
     
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  11. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    Just give it enough time :p.

    I’m sure Mrs. Bisco would agree too(y).
     
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  12. Tsiah

    Tsiah Junior Member

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    I haven't heard about their lab. I love the idea of FCEVs as long as the hydrogen is being produced from renewable power excesses.
     
  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    yeah, that's the whole problem, isn't it. same for bev's
     
  14. padroo

    padroo Senior Member

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    Even if the name Prius is retired it will live on in other Toyota models.

    All good things eventually come to an end.

    My local dealer is loaded up with inventory except with Prius. I don't know how to take it but my guess is they aren't selling.
     
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  15. Tsiah

    Tsiah Junior Member

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    Eh... I don't know about that, a BEV is significantly more efficient than an ICE. We use electricity to refine gasoline, it makes more sense to cut ito the refinery and transport all together. If you're using fossil fuels to produce hydrogen, you're using more energy to make the hydrogen then you'll ever get out of the hydrogen so you might as well just burn the fuel to move the vehicle rather than burn the fuel to make hydrogen to move the vehicle.
     
  16. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    Do take in account a FCEV is way more efficient than an ICE.

    The paths are

    Methane->Hydrogen->FCEV wheels is 70%(lower tier steam reforming)*60% = 42%
    Methane->ICE wheel is 40% at most (Atkinson Toyota, world best)
     
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  17. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Being new here, it's best to pay close attention to advice intended to help prevent misunderstandings. In this case, posting an absolute like that could be interpreted as an attempt to greenwash. The reason is you posted an extreme as if to present that as the only choice available. Misleading by omission or being vague is a common problem we have to deal with.

    There are a wide variety of choices available, far more than just "BEV" or "ICE" as presented. In fact, that is how Prius came about... and the misconceptions we had to deal with for years following rollout. People didn't understand just how profound of an efficiency improvement a system designed to exploit the efficiencies of both technologies could be. A poorly informed audience can easily be manipulated, intentional or not.

    A prime example of this (pun intended) is when you read through this article published just a week ago titled "Toyota struggles to save breakthrough Prius hybrid" … Toyota struggles to save breakthrough Prius hybrid ... It seems innocent enough, until you take a closer look. The source is from Detroit. That in itself gives reason for pause with so much anti-hybrid history. A few writers from there still have a deep hatred for hybrids, so the point of verifying claims is important. Of course, it's best to not take unfamiliar sources at face value anyway.

    Notice what barely got a mention? Prime got only this: "including a plug-in hybrid version". We've seen other sources intentionally mislead by downplay. The information presented portrays Prius as a dead-end technology with no opportunity for advancement or that consumers have shown no interest when the option was readily available. We all know Prius Prime is only at the early stages still, not even rolled out yet to a large portion of the country. The complete absence of any data is a dead giveaway. Watch for vague references like that.

    The fact in the opening related to "demand" is misleading too. That claim of "Demand exploded when it reached the U.S. three years later." tells us what? How do you measure demand when supply is limited to dealer-order only? No supply being available on dealers lots until 4.5 years later reveals the writer's claim was inaccurate, at best. Prius rolled out in Dec 1997. Dealer inventory in the U.S. wasn't made available until May 2002, and even then it was very limited. True demand explosion was in Oct 2003, as clearly indicated by a simple Wiki lookup of Prius history.

    If you are trying to make a safe assumption about an article, giving the writer benefit of doubt, assume they are totally clueless about the plug-in market. Most people have no idea that world has any potential beyond being a niche any time soon. Reality is though, that is how Toyota will save Prius. The twist is, that won't be a struggle. It won't take long either. Toyota simply had the patience and foresight to rollout based on affordability and market understanding.

    Upon studying Prius history, you'll see that Toyota intentionally held back certain design features. They downplay with the intent to target & research. That's how their upgrades have been so well received. Most people never notice those subtle clues though. It's far too easy to just accept what others have conveyed. So, use care with the words you choose. We welcome new input. Those perspectives are priceless, if well informed.
     
    #17 john1701a, Dec 24, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
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  18. Tsiah

    Tsiah Junior Member

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    How am I misleading? There's no situation where an ICE has anything on a BEV or FCEV in efficiency. A hybrid or plug in hybrid is a different story.

    I still question why we continue developing hybrid technology when there should be a bigger push for longer range lower cost EVs and wider spread charging infrastructure... But I do understand that that change won't happen quickly and hybrids will help the transition.
     
  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    'we' don't continue developing hybrid tech, manufacturers do. they are in business to make money. they are influenced by market forces and government mandates. it's not that hard to figure out.
     
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  20. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Forgetting to include such vital information is unintentionally misleading.

    What you mean by "hybrid technology" is another example of vague references. We have no idea. Clarification is necessary. After 20 years of variation, it should understandable how assumptions come into play. There's a wide variety of designs all sharing the same label.

    I suggest taking a close look at Prius Prime. The advanced heat-pump and the extremely efficient traction motor & controller should be a clue as to how PHEV tech contributes to BEV progress... and that's without even considering the related investment in the battery-pack.

    As to charging infrastructure, you've totally overlooked how much influence plug-in hybrids have toward home upgrades. For many, it is extremely complex & expensive. That reduces favor significantly for BEV purchase consideration. It doesn't for PHEV though. In fact, many buyers will take the plunge with PHEV and not upgrade until ownership after a year or two. That's key.

    Being able to charge a PHEV entirely using nothing but a shared 120-volt connection at just 8 AMPs is a very important factor for market potential. Many households cannot support more than just a single plug-in vehicle at the same time. There's much fear & uncertainty related to plugging in too. So, this phased approach is a means of quickly reaching a very wide audience.

    Think about the likelihood of the purchase of a second plug-in vehicle. Without tax-credit help and the early-adopter market saturated, an approach like Toyota's with heavy emphasis on PHEV penetration is a large opportunity to exploit... a means of carrying over developed technology at lower cost and attracting loyal customer interest.

    In other words, what is there to question knowing that additional information?
     
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