Bolts out but lower control arm won't come out

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by SB6, Nov 10, 2019.

  1. SB6

    SB6 Member

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    I was able to get the bolts out of the front lower control arm on my 2010. But the arm still doesn't want to come out all the way. I got it mostly out of the rear bolt hole, but it doesn't want to come out of the front one. And now it doesn't want to go back in the rear one either. Any ideas?

     
  2. mjoo

    mjoo Senior Member

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    Pictures?

    Pixel XL ?
     
  3. SB6

    SB6 Member

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    I posted the link, but I'm not sure if it's showing for other people. Here it is again
     
  4. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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  5. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Have you unbolted from the "knuckle" that's just behind the wheel?

    I've never done anything like this; just grasping at straws.
     
  6. SB6

    SB6 Member

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    Yeah, I unbolted from the ball joint, as I haven't been able to figure out how to get the balljoint out. My new control arm came with a balljoint.

    I was able to get the front side of the control arm out a bit more, but it still doesn't want to come out... I'm worried I took it out at a weird angle and that's what's causing it to not want to come out or go back in
     
  7. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    It must be pinching some corner or other, and a tap in the right direction will set it loose, has to. Easier said than done I know...

    I had the front raised, wheels and undercover off on ours yesterday, rust-proofing a bit. Those components are fresh in my mind.

    You've removed these bolts:

    upload_2019-11-11_8-1-36.png

    And these:

    upload_2019-11-11_8-0-49.png

    I'm curious, for the two main bolts (second picture): what did you use, a breaker bar, or impact wrench, air or electric?
     
  8. SB6

    SB6 Member

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    Used an electric impact wrench for the one facing down, but the car wasn't raised enough so the impact wrench was getting stuck between the bolt and the ground. So switched to a breaker bar. The one facing the engine was with a breaker bar.

    Anyways, had someone experienced come over and they were able to finish getting the arm out in 5 minutes :oops:

    Now I'm trying to use a pry bar to get the ball joint out like in this video (at around 6:09), but it's not going as smoothly for me as it did for him

    Just curious, what do you do for rust-proofing? I don't l live in an area with much snow, so rust from that isn't an issue. But I would still like to be able to make future projects easier by preventing rust
     
    #8 SB6, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  9. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Boiled linseed oil. Recommended here by @tvpierce .

    I'd applied it about 2 years back, and thought I'd revisit, both to see how it was holding up, and catch anything I might have missed. It was in really good shape still. I apply now with a foam brush (get big pack at craft store, cheap).

    The boiled linseed oil is available in parts department of any hardware store. Up here around $10 for a liter (you only need a cup or two, each application). Likely a lot cheaper in the states.

    They apply a lot of salt on the roads here, and our winters are mostly wet, lousy mix...

    It's excellent for application on bolts btw, the coatings they use on bolts these days do not seem to hold up at all!

    See the last two pictures in this post, bottom bolt on the rear shock, before rust proofing (around 2013?), and recently, about a year after linseed oil application.:

    Do you need underbody rust protection on new Prime? | Page 3 | PriusChat
     
    #9 Mendel Leisk, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
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  10. SB6

    SB6 Member

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    Hmm, I'll try to get some before I work on the car next time. Do you think I should put antiseize on any of the bolts I'm working with right now? The 2 control arm bolts, any of the ball joint bolts, the 3 engine mount (?) bolts under the hood?
     
  11. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    I was just thinking about that lol. Have you noticed the other current thread on lower control arm. The guy's mechanic is having no luck (so far) breaking loose the 2 big bolts (22 mm socket size).

    There is a product called Never-Seize (has regular and "nuclear" grades...). I have a book titled Pocket Ref (by Thomas J. Glover): it recommends a 0.45 torque reduction factor if you use Never-Seize. So instead of clean/dry threads and 172 ft/lb:

    upload_2019-11-11_8-35-26.png

    Maybe coat with Never-Seize and use around 80 ft/lb??

    @Georgina Rudkus will maybe comment?
     
  12. SB6

    SB6 Member

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    All I have with me currently are these: SuperTech general purpose grease, Permatex aluminum and copper antiseizes, and MasterPro super lithium ep moly grease.

    I don't have a torque wrench yet, so I'll have to be tightening by hand/wrench.

    I did see the other thread, but I don't really know what to tell him. I didn't have as much difficulty as he's describing, and am very inexperienced with cars, so I don't have any tips :(

    Speaking of tips, you have any for getting this ball joint out? I got the castle nut off, but have been unsuccessful in trying to pry the ball joint out. Would parts stores like AutoZone and O'Reilly rent out tools for this type of thing?
     
    #12 SB6, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  13. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    In the text I previously mentioned, silver and copper anti-seize torque reduction recommendation is 0.90 and 0.80 respectively.

    I'd highly recommend to get one, maybe a 1/2" drive, one that gets at least to 200 foot/pounds, what with the 22 mm bolts being 172 ft/lb (dry threads).

    Again, if you use something like Never-Seize, maybe you can cut the torque value: 172*0.45=77??

    Maybe I'm missing something, but do you need to separate the ball joint? If you take off the 3 bolts here, haven't you freed it:

    upload_2019-11-11_9-32-6.png
     
    #13 Mendel Leisk, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  14. SB6

    SB6 Member

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    Yeah, I'm planning to get one in the next few weeks, just haven't been able to get one yet

    Well I've freed the ball joint from the control arm, but the ball joint is still stuck to the knuckle(?). Since my new control arm came with a new ball joint, I wanted to replace the old one
     
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  15. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Some info on Never-Seez Regular Grade:

    upload_2019-11-11_9-47-18.png

    (See pdf attached)

    My scenario for example:

    I currently have a torque wrench that only goes to 150 foot/pounds. Worth noting too: torque wrenches get increasingly inaccurate near their range limits. If the 172 foot/pound bolts have regular Never-Seez applied to the thread, maybe sufficient torque is 172*0.7=120 foot pounds.

    And a side benefit: if you ever need to remove those bolts again, should be easier.

    Again, maybe @Georgina Rudkus will comment?
     

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    #15 Mendel Leisk, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
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  16. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    For a counterpoint, with Permatex Silver Grade Anti-Seize (this is what I have, commonly available), they recommend to use usual torque value:

    upload_2019-11-11_9-57-58.png

    (See PDF attached)

    (Similar data sheet for Copper Grade also says to use normal torque values.)
     
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  17. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    I have both a 3/4 drive torque wrench and a Snap-On dial torque wrench from my aerospace engineer days. The dial torque wrench is the most accurate throughout its entire range. It reads to 175 ft. lbs. and would do the job. The 3/4 drive torque wrench will be about 2/3 of it's range at 172 ft. lbs. Either one would suffice for tightening the bolts.

    I'd recommend using a cheap 1/2 drive Harbor Freight $10+ (with coupon) torque wrench, tighten it to the upper limit of the wrench, and then, using a long arm breaker bar, another 45 to 60, or even 90 degrees. This will get you into the "ball park" of the correct torque.

    Hot Rod Magazine tested the cheap Harbor Freight torque wrench and found it nearly as accurate as the Snap-On.

    Click type torque wrenches lose their accuracy, because careless technicians do not relieve the pressure on the spring after each session of use. That "weakens" the spring and leads to lower torque readings in their future use. With the pressure released after each use, the wrench can remain accurate for many uses and years.
     
  18. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Yeah I've read to always release them. Also that it's good to leave them at their min setting, not completely slacked off??

    I have a cheap-as-dirt 1/2" drive, micrometer style torque wrench, purchased God it must be at least 35 years back. Also more recently purchased 3/8" and 1/4" drive torque wrenches, the latter good for things like throttle body hold-down bolts/nuts.

    My 1/2" has a 150 pound ceiling, got me looking at this, and I don't even have a suspension issue, lol:

    GearWrench (85066) 1/2" Torque Wrench

    (30-250 foot/pound range), about $150 CDN.
     
    #18 Mendel Leisk, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  19. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    Additionally, I would "bite the bullet" and use all new bolts, as the old one might have been overstressed with rough removal techniques.

    A good example of catastrophic failure could be learned in the crash of Jimmy Leeward's Galloping Ghost at the 2011 Reno Air Races.

    2011 Reno Air Races crash - Wikipedia
     
  20. SB6

    SB6 Member

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    I did finally manage to replace the right lower control arm and ball joint, though it took a while. I did eventually get help though, so I didn't do it myself.

    I still want to do the left LCA as well, but I will have to put it off for another couple weeks due to time. Anyways, thank you two for the help and info!
     
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