Did you consider the Honda Clarity before your Prius Prime?

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by Skapruisprime, Feb 18, 2018.

  1. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Active Member

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    Oni,
    Sorry I can't get the multi-quote working.
    Us BEV owners have been through this. What about selling electrons to BEV owners regardless of what make of BEV it is? That might help Tesla on the way to someday turning a profit.

    JB Straubel.
    He extrapolates based on an average 7% annual drop...
    The larger pack is offered for $75 a kWh..
    Your ignorance does not make..

    Well if a Tesla employee says something.....
    Well if they can throw a few more cells on board a $250k vehicle for X then that's what the kWH cap costs?

    (quick with the name calling, no?)

    I'll be happily driving a Tesla in few months;

    Did a Tesla employee tell you this? And you totally believe that? And you talk about pie in the sky claims?

    The PV in my yard covers my home and my cars, with kWh left over I export to the grid.

    I commend you for this! You are living now in the clean energy future ! What size is you system?
    Can you post a yearly graph? I really want to do this!
    But if it's a grid tied system you are using grid power at times.

    Can I get on your list too !!!





     
    #161 Bill Norton, Apr 15, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
  2. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Maybe an analogy will help everyone else to understand this fundamental fact.

    If you have a large reservoir that has a hundred streams, creeks and rivers flowing into it, and you walk up to the reservoir and scoop out a bucket full of water, can you tell what stream, creek, or river your bucket of water came from?
     
  3. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    Done
     
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  4. MikeDee

    MikeDee Active Member

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    So what? Whatever excess power he is pushing to the grid is used by another customer and doesn't have to be generated at the power plant.
     
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  5. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    Yep -- a somewhat unusual PM motor. IIRC the i3 has the same type.

    Tesla changed the heating system in the Model 3 and now collects heat from the motor (and possible electronics). I am pretty sure it can be shunted to the battery when needed, but I am not sure if it can be used for cabin heating.
     
  6. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    That is so, with one possible caveat:

    In grids with mixed fuel sources that vary with load and time of day, it is certainly possible for a kWh sent to the grid to displace a fuel source that is different from the one used when the kWh is returned to the PV owner. My utility grid only has one fossil fuel source that accounts for all the marginal change in either direction.

    RMI has a pretty good monograph on the subject.
     
    #166 Oniki, Apr 15, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
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  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It might work out, but batteries are the cheaper solution for now. The fuel cells themselves also have a finite life

    Research is fine, but the hydrogen group is trying to commercialize it. You can actually buy a Mirai; it isn't lease only. The costs have improved, but that still leaves the Mirai at about a $100k car without subsidies. A six figure car with the performance of a Camry.

    There is a little over a thousand miles of hydrogen pipelines in the US. There is over a million miles of natural gas lines. For a car refueling infrastructure, we don't need that many miles of hydrogen lines, but hydrogen's properties means any pipelines will cost more to make and maintain than those natural gas lines.

    Don't forget China's own standard.
    A standard didn't exist at the time for Tesla that met their needs, so they made their own. CHAdeMO had some high licensing fees in the beginning, and the car industry wasn't taking Tesla seriously, so CCS was born.

    As for standards, the ones for what and how FCEVs will be fueled isn't yet set in stone. Initially it was hydrogen compressed to 5000psi. Now its hydrogen at 10k psi, but Japan is moving to 12k psi. Each time it changes, it costs a lot to upgrade the stations as you need to replace tanks and compressors. A quick DC charger just needs a different plug with some software; ones that serve CSS and CHAdeMO already exist.

    Then there is research still on going into other hydrogen storage types, like hydrides, and even filling methods, such as prefilling the tank with water first. Then we don't even have to use pure hydrogen for the fuel. Work is still ongoing for methanol fell cells. Nissan's FCEV uses ethanol,Volvo as one that autoreforms diesel, and commercially available fuel cells for stationary power use natural gas.

    I read that as the cost for those things at the plant since it didn't say distribution.

    But if I'm wrong, why isn't the hydrogen groups singing about this development? Specially in California.
    It would mean a hydrogen FCEV can go more than twice the distance on a kg of hydrogen than a comparable ICE car on a gallon of gas, do so for less than twice the price for a gallon of regular, and it is 100% renewable.

    When made from natural gas which negates the GHG emission reduction promise of hydrogen. We could run fuel cells and ICE on the natural gas without the need to build an extremely expensive infrastructure if we are just going to use NG for the hydrogen.

    So not take headlines about Tesla losing face value. Yes, they need to get Model 3 production up, but they make a profit on the S and Y. It is just that Tesla has been reinvesting those profits into factories and the Supercharger network. The final number on their spreadsheet only looks bad if you ignore what they got for their money.

    Grid tied PV is also cheaper to implement than going off grid while providing more benefit. Gridless requires energy storage and an oversized array since you get power on less than optimal days. With the grid tied, all the power made by the array is put to use without conversion losses from storage.
     
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  8. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Hydrogen made from natural gas is cleaner than grid charging a BEV. This is because the grid is still something like 35% coal driven. As the grid gets more towards 100% renewables, both will get cleaner because H2 can start to be made from grid power.
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    There is no national grid when it comes to production mix, and coal contributions are dropping in many regions. The regions that are heavy coal or lower population density, and the GHG emissions of a BEV charged there is still is lower than equivalent cars. In the regions with higher populations, BEVs are at or better to the emissions of a hybrid.

    Because of the inherent inefficiencies of making hydrogen from electricity, more renewable production needs to be built to cover the same number of driven miles as directly charged vehicles.

    Are the press releases on the great strides in hydrogen cost drops coming out soon?
     
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  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    This is what we can do with methane, energy omitted:

    COMBUSTION

    CH{4} + 2O{2} -> CO{2} + 2H{2}O :: heat to drive a generator (or keep wife happy), CO{2} vented
    11854 kJ * 50% ~= 5927 kJ of electricity :: optimum thermal dynamic conversion
    5927 kw / 41.4 kw ~= 0.14H :: hydrogen from electrolysis​

    REDUCTION

    CH{4} -> C + 2H{2} :: 4 moles of hydrogen, carbon skimmed off for battery electrodes​

    STEAM REDUCTION

    CH{4} + 2H{2}O -> CO{2} + 4H{2} :: 8 moles of hydrogen, CO{2} repurposed or vented​

    Cheap hydrogen means steam reduction because it breaks the water steam into hydrogen and the oxygen ties up the carbon. More expensive, reduction means carbon is kept in a form that can be repurposed or buried. The least efficient is electrolysis of water from a methane fired generator. But use the generated electricity to charge EV batteries provides roughly twice the miles of what it takes to make 1 kg of hydrogen.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  11. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Active Member

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    If the motor and electronics are making heat, that power is coming from a heating up battery pack.
    All three of those systems need cooling at that point.
    It will be interesting to hear how the various heating/cooling system work within the Model 3 and if there is any 'heat exchange'.
    Do you read me, over?

    I always question these blanket statements.
    I believe 'natural gas' as it comes out of the ground is a varying combination of methane and CO².
    I think some dirty wells can be 50/50. Where does all that unwanted CO² go?
    Then the production of Hydrogen produces even more, then the transport, then the sale/dispensing, etc, etc... Well-to-Wheel is complicated.

    And "The Grid"... There is no one grid. It varies, so how can you make blanket statements on that?
    Go here to see what's in your local 'grid' is:
    How clean is the electricity I use? - Power Profiler | Clean Energy | US EPA
     
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  12. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    There are only three grids in the US - west, east, and Texas.
     
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    It is unfair to use only one alternative plug-in hybrid to compare to the Prius Prime. So here is a complete list of the 2018 plug-in hybrids (click on headers to sort column) :

    model MPGe MPG
    1 Toyota Prius Prime 133 54
    2 Hyundai Ioniq Plug-in Hybrid 119 52
    3 Honda Clarity Plug-in Hybrid 110 42
    4 BMW i3 (94Ah) with Range Exten 109 35
    5 BMW i3s (94Ah) with Range Exte 109 35
    6 Chevrolet Volt 106 42
    7 Kia Niro Plug-in Hybrid 105 46
    8 Kia Optima Plug-in Hybrid 103 40
    9 Ford Fusion Energi Plug-in Hyb 97 42
    10 Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid 84 32
    11 Audi A3 e-tron 83 36
    12 Mercedes-Benz GLC350e 4matic 74 25
    13 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV 74 25
    14 BMW 530e 72 29
    15 BMW 330e 71 30
    16 Volvo S90 AWD PHEV 71 29
    17 BMW 530e xDrive 67 28
    18 MINI Cooper SE Countryman All4 65 27
    19 BMW 740e xDrive 64 27
    20 Volvo XC90 AWD PHEV 62 27
    21 Cadillac CT6 Plug-In 62 25
    22 Karma Revero 60 20
    23 Volvo XC60 AWD PHEV 59 26
    24 BMW X5 xDrive40e 56 24
    25 Mercedes-Benz C350e 51 30
    26 Porsche Panamera Turbo S e-Hyb 49 21
    27 Porsche Cayenne S e-Hybrid 47 22
    28 Porsche Panamera 4 e-Hybrid ST 46 22
    29 Mercedes-Benz GLE550e 4matic 43 21

    • 2014 BMW i3-REx - what I chose in May 2016
    • 2017 Prius Prime Plus - what I chose in December 2016
    Bob Wilson
     
    #173 bwilson4web, Apr 16, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  14. Sanjay Goel

    Sanjay Goel Junior Member

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    Interesting to hear of Huntsville - I was there just yesterday...
     
    #174 Sanjay Goel, Apr 16, 2018
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  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    How did they get this wrong then?
    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    ^^ I like the map if for no other reason that it highlights what a little PV in the yard can do in my RMPA region: turn an EV into a NYUP equivalent :)
     
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  17. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Active Member

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    Total efficiency numbers are nice to compare.
    But realistically the cost differences in powering these top 9 PHEV is minimal.
    But then factor in usage differences.

    If a PHEV owner is doing their ~50 mile RT commute on EV only, and only taking the time and expense have an oil change performed every 2 years, regardless of EV/Gas %, that factors in.
    And not stopping at the Qik Trip as often!

    You have to factor in Total Cost of Ownership, on an individual basis.
    EV only and gas only numbers are nice to see....
     
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  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Considering how new the Prime and others on that list are, I'm sticking to buying new because of very limited used ones on the market.

    For a buyer with a Prime on their short list, the only luxury model that might not be counted out because of price is the A3 E-tron. If price isn't an issue, sales says they will likely choose the Tesla.

    After considering plug in incentives, a few others are still more than the Prime. Ford incentives could bring the Fusion Energi price down. Same applies to the Sonata and Optima PHEVs. The Outlander is the only SUV left, and only one with AWD. So those might still on our buyer's list. If they need a minivan, they aren't looking at a Prime though.

    The Clarity and Volt get a bigger federal incentive that can close the price gap with the Prime. The Ioniq and Niro are less to begin with. Then there are a few 2017 C-max Energis on dealer lots. So five realistic options to the Prime for a plug in buyer.
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    I used a simple, web scrape to generate the table knowing EV and total range are missing. I may be able to find these in one of the EPA spreadsheets and do a look-up. Better still, extract the relevant information from the spreadsheet.

    I just felt it was unfair to 'cherry pick' one make and model to compare to the Prius Prime. We saw this before when Ioniq advocates showed up following Hyundai's news releases that mentioned the Prius and Prime. Is this any different from any other SPAMer coming to PriusChat to hawk their wares?

    So I try to track the efficient car market here: Dashboard summary March 2018 | PriusChat

    It is trivial to take any of these plug-in hybrids and see where people voted with their wallets:
    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
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  20. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Active Member

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    Bob,
    First, that graph is anything but simple. (and hard to read) This thread is about PHEV's. And maybe BEV's.
    Second, "people voting with their wallets". Is that really a trustworthy metric? How many do actual research.
    Pen to paper TCO calculations?
    They look at few sites. Listen to the few hybrid (maybe PHEV) owners they know.

    And some look at numbers,,, like you post in your signature:
    199-58 MPG - Prius Prime
    180-40 MPG - i3-REx


    Come on, Buddy, you know those are goofy metrics.
    Those numbers make it seem like the EV miles are absolutely free and you get "199 mpg in gas".
    Whereas, my signature number is
    MPG for over 50k miles. But we all know I'm not driving those miles for free.
    (Although I was for a few years thanks to my local electric company !)
     
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