Emperor Bob Lutz doesn't disappoint in SAE World Congress keynote

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Sergiospl, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    Emperor Bob Lutz doesn't disappoint in SAE World Congress keynote!
    Chevy today had a Press release for the 2014 Cruze diesel, the same day of Bob Lutz' speech about Diesels. http://www.autoblog.com/2013/04/18/2014-chevrolet-cruze-diesel-gets-46-mpg/
     
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  2. Jon Hagen

    Jon Hagen Active Member

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    I have not priced the difference between a VW with TDI VS a gas model, but the Chevrolet diesel pickup appears to be around a $12,000 option. Tough to justify that unless you do a lot of miles while pulling a heavy load.

    edit: Reading your link, the cruze diesel is no less money, and makes less mpg on a more expensive fuel than a Prius liftback of about equal size. I also dislike diesel engines in a cold climate like our winters. mostly cold starting, fuel gelling problems and the odor of diesel if you get a few drops of it on your clothing while refueling.
     
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  3. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    "Reducing fuel consumption by forcing automakers to sell smaller and more frugal vehicles is like fighting the nation's obesity epidemic by forcing clothing manufacturer to sell only small sizes. If you want less obesity, then what you would do is you would raise the price of fatty foods."-Bob Lutz

    This shows a flawed perception and a toxic outlook, as well as just being an unfair analogy. Bobby should take a good look at what Toyota has done with The Prius.

    The Standard Prius has gone from being a compact to now being classified as a mid-sized vehicle, and it's evolution has been one that has included more and more space, comfort and size.

    Let the family in, and The Prius v, is a more frugal vehicle that is being sold as an alternative to large SUV's and Mini-Vans.

    So seems like Toyota, without being forced, has found a way to produce more frugal vehicles without exclusively applying the solution as being "smaller vehicles". I think Bob Lutz needs to expand his thinking here. Nobody is really forcing automakers to sell smaller and more frugal vehicles, just more efficient vehicles. And if Toyota has been able to do that while pushing the envelope in both directions Prius v and Prius c...then it's clear to me that efficiency is not limited to small sized vehicles only. The challenge of making larger vehicles more efficient may be more daunting, but Toyota has proven it's not impossible.

    Seems like a bit of fear mongering to the lowest common denominator. In other words? Force us to be more efficient, and we are going to give you all smaller cars! Well that is neither the reality that is being asked for, nor is it the only or exclusive answer.
     
  4. artyking

    artyking Junior Member

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    Correct me here if I'm wrong...a Volt owner or three especially. For myself, driving an average of 125-ish miles a day, give more than take, I get the first 37-ish miles for free (not counting the plug in charge up) After that the gas motor kicks in and generates power for the electric motors. The math after the electric 37 miles turns into about 37 mpg. If so I would use just under 2.4 gallons a day, which is actually barely more than I use in a Prius. However, I use it on a mail route, 61 miles and about 650 stops and goes. My understanding is the ICE in a Volt continues to run even though I'm stopped or coasting (after the 37-ish electric miles)? I know my driving situation is very different from the norm but the ICE in a Volt not shutting down would kill my mpg (2.4 gallons would be out the window) for 61 miles of my 125.

    I love my Prius and Toyota really hit it on the head with this one, at least until we figure out how to up the range on EV's and make them affordable. The only thing I hate worse is that it wasn't an American auto company that kicked the hybrid thing and develope it into anything meaningful like the Prius.

    As small as it looks on the outside I have more usable space inside than I did with my Olds or Buick mailcars, which is another issue for me with the Volt. I just wish the US car makers would get it together, bad enough they sent a lot of jobs overseas and increased profit margins only to tell us they can't (won't) make a more efficient set of wheels without compromising space.
     
  5. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Good speech by Mr. Lutz. I am sure we all have different opinions but it is thought provoking.
    What does he mean by his statement?
    Is he saying PiP has lower CO2 than Volt by EPA calcs? When he says "Prius wins", Prius wins what? Seems to me the EPA/Congress is bending over backwards with their subsidy formulas and MPGe calcs to favor the apparent U.S. policy preference for Plug-in cars versus hybrids.
     
  6. AtoyotA

    AtoyotA Junior Member

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    Oh, the American auto companies had their chance - look up "Partnership For a New Generation of Vehicles". For example...
    Remembering Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV)

    It was a government program started in 1993 to get Ford, Chrysler and GM to build an 80 mpg passenger car. Toyota wanted to join the program but they said no. Toyota got worried and so started to work on building there own high mileage vehicle. The Big 3 quit, Toyota didn't. (This is what quality guru Edward Demming called "constancy of purpose". Something Americans call "sticktoitiveness" but which the Big 3 never seemed to have when you are chasing next quarter's results.) And so now Toyota has sold over 5 million hybrids.
     
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  7. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Ummm - IIRC, the ICE can run the Volt directly.
    You have to interpret Lutz's thought ... and here, he's likely talking about the PiP ... as opposed to the standard Prius. Making that leap, you have to presume most of Lutz's trips are only slightly longer than the Volt's 37ish EV miles. In that scenerio (99% trips less than 40 miles) the Volt's economy is higher than the PiP. But then you have to ignore how many years it'd take to recapture the fuel savings (volt costing thousands more) for the Volt. Or, you'd have to wonder why Lutz didn't just buy a Leaf (and pocket the price/savings) if 99% of his trips are only 40 miles or less.
    ;)

    .
     
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    That isn't an apples to apples comparison. The diesel engines are only available in the larger class trucks. The price includes more robust frame and mechanical components. That said, it is still an $8300 upgrade.

    The Vw is around a $2000 to $3000 increase, IIRC. Those checking that, the base TDI is equivalent to a mid trim gasser in terms of features.



    The posters at cleanmpg seem excited about the announced highway numbers for the Cruze. Remember, diesels tend to perform better than EPA in the real world.

    When was the last time you handled diesel fuel? I once picked some ULSD when the running low on heating oil, and it didn't smell at all like the old stuff. I think they also have improved winter blends for the cold. Gas cars used to have problems with starting in the cold. No reason to expect diesel technology has remained fixed.

    Not sure where you could have gotten that info. The Volt will shut off the engine for stops and coasts. It might keep it running if the battery SOC is too low, but so will a Prius.
     
  9. Joekc

    Joekc Member

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    The following is forwarded from Ian, Chevrolet Volt Customer Service who asked me to post this:

    "Artykings,
    The engine does shut off when the battery is at the Charge Sustain Point. The engine will not run unless there is a reason to... temperature or to maintain charge. The Volt behaves like an EV when the battery is charged above the Charge Sustain Point, and like a traditional hybrid vehicle that reclaims electricity when slowing down through regenerative braking (For drivers that like regenerative braking we suggest using the L mode). The only exception to this is when the engine is running due to cold temperatures while the vehicle is warming up. Once the coolant system is warmed up, the engine will shut off when coming to a stop.

    Thank you to any contributors that are willing to help clarify these misconceptions.

    -Ian Chevrolet Volt Customer Service
     
  10. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    The Volt's gas engine acts like a generator at speeds under 35 mph but it mechanically clutches the gas engine to the transmission at speeds above 35 mph (except for periods of strong acceleration or torque demand). The mechanical connection improves the mpg.

    Your estimation of 2.4 gallons of gas for the Volt seems reasonable during 125 miles under those conditions.

    I regularly have 125 mile days in my Volt. I can drive 45-50 miles on battery and then 45-50 mpg on gasoline after than on 20+ mile contiguous highway segments at 55-60 mph with fan-only climate controls. I also get to recharge during parts of the day so I typically use less than 1 gallon of gas for 125 miles on a single day -- I usually get 150-250 mpg on a 125 mile commute day.

    The Prius is generally 25% better at gas mpg and especially gets better gas mpg than the Volt at prolonged speeds under 35 mph.

    It sounds like a Prius is probably a better choice for the driving pattern that you describe although a Volt could certainly do the job (especially if there was time for significant recharging during middle of the day).

    No, the ICE will shutdown while coasting or stopped much like a Prius does.

    My shorthand description of the Volt is that it acts like a Nissan LEAF for the first 25-50 miles until the battery is "empty" and then turns into a Prius-like hybrid.
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    You probably meant "Ford CMAX" instead of "Prius-like hybrid".

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. artyking

    artyking Junior Member

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    I stand much more educated on the Volt...thanks guys! Admittedly...I still love my Prius :D
     
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  13. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    Yes, that would be a better comparison for hybrid mpg except few people know what a CMAX is or even much about Ford hybrids.
     
  14. FranklinS

    FranklinS Ach crivens ye scunners!

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    American corporations have pushed for more profitable short term gains out of greed. They have cried over high tax rates when their effective tax rates are usually only 11-15%. They wanted big short term gains so they could please fat cat investors who put money into overseas accounts and become a parasite on the US economy.
    Japan has a much higher effective tax rate. The difference is that they want long term profits which is a much healthier perspective.
     
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  15. artyking

    artyking Junior Member

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    My main understanding issue comes from the whole MPGe thing. I simply want to figure out how much gas in how many miles and how big a hit my power bill will take. I know it all gets a bit slushy based on how many miles you drive per charge and how you drive etc. I'm still hoping an affordable full blown EV comes out that I can drive from the passenger side (mailman) and stuff the mail in...and have the range to complete the commute plus route miles and likely a trip to town in the day. I figure with batteries fading over some years it would have to start out around 200 - 250 miles range to allow for that fade. I think I have the best deal going for what I do with my Gen 2 Prii right now. I don't have the option to charge up in the middle of the day so...that just is what it is.

    Thanks for letting me pick your minds!
     
  16. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I think he has 2011 or 2012 Volt -- EPA rated 94 MPGe. PiP is rated 95 MPGe. That rating is based on the test cycles about 11 miles. His point was Volt has more EV range so Volt should get higher MPGe.

    EPA does take account of EV range, gas engine efficiency and statistic of commute pattern and came up with thevcombined composite MPGe. Volt is rated 60 MPGe and 58 MPGe for PiP.

    The problem with his statement is the 238 MPGe he claimed. In order to achieve it, he needs to get 89 EV miles on a charge (35 miles rated) and never use gas. That's not possible especially engine and fuel maintence would consume gas.

    Therefore, he must be adding electric and gas miles and dividing by gasoline gallons. Totally not comparable to PiP EPA 95 MPGe figure.
     
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  17. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    I have no idea. He obviously doesn't average 238 MPGe -- he means 238 MPG.

    If you go look at the PiP/Volt 7-11 Switcheroo results you will see that I managed to get 130 MPGe in battery-only mode.

    PiP/Volt January 7-11 Switcheroo | Page 11 | PriusChat

    You aren't going to get much better than that in a Volt or Plugin Prius in real-world commuting over multiple days (without dropping in elevation). Once you factor in the 21% of my miles that were using the gas engine in hybrid mode in the Volt it drops down to 113 MPGe although I averaged 242 MPG.
     
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  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    A nit perhaps but in sales numbers, the CMAX numbers are a fraction of all Prius sales yet in the same numbers as the Prius V. Furthermore, user reported CMAX mileage is running just under the Prius V, closer to the Volt MPG. Just include the fact that the CMAX and Prius V are substantially larger than the Volt and twice the sales numbers in March.

    For over a decade, a lot of hybrid skeptics have been spreading FUD, saving the truth, and claiming total falsehoods. So don't be surprised if an imprecise posting 'in the house of Prius' gets a little attention.

    Bob Wilson
     
  19. ChipL

    ChipL Active Member

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    I agree, in looking at the diesel Cruze announcement - it appeared to me that the auto press made the extra cost of the diesel vs gas Cruze a non-issue. Yet they blast the Prius for the same.
     
  20. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    It depends on what you call the press.
    2014 Chevrolet Cruze Diesel EPA-Rated at 46-mpg Highway — News – Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog


    That makes the hybrid premium on the camry hybrid versus camry seem low.;)
     
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