1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Excessive/Ghost Mileage after mechanic?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by Johnsmith009, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. Johnsmith009

    Johnsmith009 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2018
    124
    34
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    Also, how would one update the engine calibration?
     
  2. Lightning Racer

    Lightning Racer Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2015
    239
    320
    1
    Location:
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Read the thread title of the second link that I provided earlier;), the one with the pictures of the purge valve, and the poster testing it with 12V and breaking it open.

    You can get away with just replacing the purge valve. Your current engine calibrations worked before the purge valve got sticky, should work with a new purge valve.
     
  3. Johnsmith009

    Johnsmith009 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2018
    124
    34
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    Edit:
    This is local and will ship far quicker, but even less identifying features, just "This will work for a 2010 base model prius".
    BWD CP715 Canada Vapor Canister Purge Solenoid | TheWrenchMonkey Canada


    More Information for STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS CP625
    This seems like a good replacement but its not the same part number? The site says this part (2586037020) is compatible with a 2010 prius, and so do others, but I'm still not sure.

    Was there maybe a purge valve recall/upgrade somewhere that changed the part number?
    All 90910-12279 parts seem to be used or sketchy. I also called the dealership to get a quote and they don't even sell 90910-12279 "Whole" (I'd have to purchase the "whole assembly"... like the intake manifold? I'm not sure what he meant but I'm not going to spend half a thousand to find out)
     
    #103 Johnsmith009, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  4. Johnsmith009

    Johnsmith009 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2018
    124
    34
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    New purge valve that looks identical (including markings) from RockAuto, and new oem intake manifold gasket.

    No change, problem persists.
     
  5. The Critic

    The Critic Resident Critic

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2005
    3,193
    2,319
    0
    Location:
    CA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Was the software update performed?

    Per the TSB, you need both the part and the update.
     
  6. Johnsmith009

    Johnsmith009 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2018
    124
    34
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    Well no, but if there's zero change, for better or for worse, I really doubt software would make an impact. o_O

    And how do I even do that anyway? I recall reading over the TSB and still being confused on that step. Do I need to take it in? Can I do it myself? What techstream does it need, and can I screw it up by mistake?

    Also I got AN update in February as per the recall. Is it that one?

    Edit:
    Not to mention the TSB mentions USA. I'm in Canada.
    The parts numbers don't match up either.
    I replaced 90910-12279, TSB mentions part number 25860-37020.
    It also mentions parts 89660-47###, which are to upgrade the computer. Thats a $600 gamble at minimum, and if the cause was a stuck valve, I don't see how it'd make a difference.
     
    #106 Johnsmith009, Apr 23, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  7. Johnsmith009

    Johnsmith009 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2018
    124
    34
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    On another note here's a sample drive that demonstrates the problem.
     
  8. The Critic

    The Critic Resident Critic

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2005
    3,193
    2,319
    0
    Location:
    CA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    The software is updated using a J2534 interface and Techstream Lite ($60 for 48 hr). Most dealers charge 1 hr to update if you are out of warranty. I use a cardaq plus 2 but there is a MongoosePro interface available as well.

    As an example, we primarily service 370z/G37s. Very commonly we will see a P0106 fault for the MAP sensor. We have seen people replace sensors and try other fixes with no permanent solution. Nissan has a TSB out for a reflash to correct this problem; no part replacements are required. We have reflashed hundreds of these cars and we have not had a single one come back. Something with the ECU software gets "corrupted" over time and I cannot explain what happens. All I know is that if you follow the TSB to the letter and update the engine calibration to the latest version, the problem is solved. In your situation, since you already replaced the part, complete the rest of the TSB procedure and have the vehicle updated. When a health check is performed in Techstream, it will tell you if there is an updated calibration available.
     
    Raytheeagle likes this.
  9. Johnsmith009

    Johnsmith009 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2018
    124
    34
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    Thank you, I'll give that a try when I get the cash.
     
    Raytheeagle likes this.
  10. Johnsmith009

    Johnsmith009 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2018
    124
    34
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    The dealers are very adamant that Techstream wouldn't be important and it's also $130/hr.

    They also told me that USA tsb doesn't apply to Canada.

    Also, I got a document that outlines the calibration IDs, and I already received the latest one, like I mentioned. See right side of attached picture.

    Also, the calibration IDs don't match up with the TSB. I've attached the TSB ids for ease of reference.

    What now?

    It's worth noting I have no fault codes, even pending is clear.

    Screenshot_20190425-094612.jpeg DSC_0224.JPG
     
    #110 Johnsmith009, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  11. Johnsmith009

    Johnsmith009 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2018
    124
    34
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    I did not see this part.

    Questions:
    • The passages are just small holes? Where do they open up to?
    • How will I drain them?
    • Do I need additional tools i.e. Vacuum, Compressed Air, Water hose (Can I use high-pressure car wash hoses? I don't know of any low-pressure water hoses)
    • What Oxiclean do I use, and how much/with what?
    • How long should I leave it in?
    • Should I rinse it after?
    • How long should I let it dry?
    • Would you recommend shoving my EGR cooler into an OxiBath as well? How much do I use for that?
    Thanks!
     
    #111 Johnsmith009, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  12. Johnsmith009

    Johnsmith009 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2018
    124
    34
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    So, funny story,

    Naturally this happened when I was rushing to replace my purge valve. Luckily it's the easier-to-access top left one in the airbox, and it snapped off high enough that it still keeps the airbox in place. Still, I'd like to eventually fix this without breaking my manifold, so any tips?
     
  13. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    54,669
    38,209
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    There are bolt extractor screws, with reverse threads. You drill a small diameter pilot hole into the bolt remnant, then drill the extractor screw (in counter clockwise direction). With a little luck it'll lock properly, and back the bolt remnant out of the hole.

    Alternately, just keep drilling larger and larger pilot holes, and eventually you might be able to collapse what's left inward a bit, then screw it out.

    The stainless steel pipe from EGR valve goes to the intake point on the intake manifold. Running across the manifold is largish diameter tube gallery, with the four small diameter capillaries branching off, one for each port.

    Traditional pipe cleaners, what's nowadays typically sold in craft stores, would likely be good for running through the small diameter capillaries. Or some very mini-skinny bottle brushes. Chopsticks maybe. Copper wire, though file the tip, take any sharp edge off.

    Oxi-Clean comes in powdered form, maybe also premixed liquid. I used powdered. Basically use the hottest tap water you can muster, and stir in as much oxi as will dissolve, or even a bit more. Make either the EGR cooler or the intake manifold as the container (cork one end of the cooler, for example), then pour in the solution, enough to fill and let it sit to percolate, for about an hour, or until the action subsides.

    Then rinse with hot water, and repeat. I found with the EGR cooler it took about 5~6 sessions, and it came out as-new clean. With the stainless steel intake manifold, it more of a never-ending story, due to the rough-finish plastic interior. I just got it functionally clean, called it done.

    I would definitely rinse thoroughly and let the items air dry completely.

    The EGR cooler soaking. I didn't have a proper plug, just makeshift:

    upload_2019-4-25_8-44-28.png
    That froth at the top is evidence of the reaction. Note the black flecks.

    Another pic, using a copper wire to open things up:

    upload_2019-4-25_8-45-52.png

    The intake manifold:

    upload_2019-4-25_8-47-9.png

    I left the EGR pipe attached, it acts as a fill tube.

    The "bloom" is at each EGR capillary:

    upload_2019-4-25_10-7-32.png

    After sitting a while:

    upload_2019-4-25_8-48-59.png
     
    #113 Mendel Leisk, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
    fuzzy1 and RMB like this.
  14. Johnsmith009

    Johnsmith009 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2018
    124
    34
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    I've cleaned my intake manifold, with EGR ports, entirely. Also pressure rinsed the residue. It now looks out of place in my rusty, dusty engine bay.

    I was able to shove pipe cleaners straight through with little problem before cleaning, so I guess right away I knew they probably weren't the problem. Still, I did 6-8 runs with oxiclean. Attached is the end result (post bloom) of the first 2.

    No change.

    I'm going to get a 12mm deep socket eventually to get the cooler out and try the same, but do you have any recommendations for checking if it's stuck open/closed? Can I hook up a battery to some prongs?

    Fun fact, oxiclean solidifies to quite a hard substance. I was worried my egr pipe was done for, but hot water, picks, and a car wash fixed it.
    Edit:
    Oh, I didn't interpret your instructions correctly. I just jammed 10% water, powder, 90% water into the thing. Worked mostly the same, just don't let it dry up.
    View attachment 170114 DSC_0226.JPG
     
    Raytheeagle likes this.
  15. The Critic

    The Critic Resident Critic

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2005
    3,193
    2,319
    0
    Location:
    CA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    The 4 calibration ID's are for the Hybrid System Module. The update I am referring to is for the Engine Control Module. The only way to confirm if an update is available is to run a "live" health check using Techstream.
     
    Raytheeagle likes this.
  16. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    54,669
    38,209
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    You're not kidding, lol. I would try a few tablespoons of Oxi-Clean to a cup of hot tap water. Close to "concentrated solution", or slightly beyond.

    Anyway, if it's clean it's clean. (y)

    I'm not sure how to precheck the EGR valve operation. There would be a warning light if it was stuck I think. I would just dive in. Do watch @NutzAboutBolts EGR clean video, and also the ones he references, like the spark plug change, which is mostly about wiper and cowl removal.
     
  17. Johnsmith009

    Johnsmith009 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2018
    124
    34
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    Yup, I have cleaned my EGR before, but it was a bit rushed and it was just to the point that I could see out the other side. Unfortunately when buying my own tools I got a 10mm deep socket instead of a 12. I found that out today after I had gotten everything else undone. :(

    Okay I guess... I'll try this soon. I'm very skeptical though, I feel like if there was an update available they would've told me.
     
  18. Johnsmith009

    Johnsmith009 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2018
    124
    34
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    So I had a thought and noticed some people (wrongly) disconnecting their EGR or blocking it off to "fix" the problem. I tried that as a diagnostic, and same behavior persists (with a check engine light of course)

    By this logic, would it be safe to say the issue is not with the EGR system?

    Also, if a head gasket is blown, a check engine light would show/there would be increased oil consumption, right? I noticed this morning there is "white smoke" coming out of my exhaust, but the problem is I don't know what the regular exhaust looks like. I've also seen copious amounts of similar smoke from other cars when they floor it, so I think I'm just colorblind.
    But is there any other way to be sure? My coolant and oil is staying level.

    Edit:
    Could the fuel filter be a cause? I'm reading up and there's not too much documentation on it so I can't rule it out. Would you be able to?
     
    #118 Johnsmith009, Apr 26, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
  19. Johnsmith009

    Johnsmith009 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2018
    124
    34
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    I'm thinking of taking my car to AutoDex, but the problem is they're just telling me to leave my car there and they'll "call me when they've found something".

    In my head, that's ample time to do anything to my car, including swap parts or plant a mechanical seed to make sure it breaks down later.

    Not to mention they don't do weekends, and I kind of need to go to work every day.

    A few people here have said good things but I don't know if I should trust a mechanic that can't give an ETA and I can't be present as they work. Any advice?



    ALSO, UPDATE:
    I have noticed that especially at high speeds, when it goes from full electric to combustion, there's a noticeable hesitation to the point of temporary speed reduction.
     
    #119 Johnsmith009, Apr 29, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  20. Johnsmith009

    Johnsmith009 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2018
    124
    34
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    Nothing in techstream for updates or health check.
    New 12v battery.
    Another mechanic visit, this time less costly but equally annoying.[​IMG]
    I'd like to note they took from 9:00 to 6:00 to do a test drive, check the air filter, spin the wheel once or twice, see if the check engine light is on, and shove smoke into the evap system.
    I highly doubt the compare vehicle had the same problem. I've driven newer priuses and I've driven *my* prius, it didn't used to do this.
    How is 6L/100km considered "good overall" on the generous onboard fuel econ system when I was getting 4.9L in the winter?
     
    bisco likes this.