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Ford : C-Max Hybrid to have better fuel economy than Prius v

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by evnow, Dec 14, 2011.

  1. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    After seeing Energi cargo space, I realized how balanced PiP is with a flat cargo floor. $25k with the cash bonus and tax credit, it was no brainer (see this post) for me to upgrade from 2006 Gen2.

    Since you already have Gen3, it would be better to wait for Gen4 PHV coming out in 2015.
     
  2. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I think the 60 MPG was referring to the Gen4 Prius. If you watched the video, he talked about information from a source in Toyota about the next gen.
     
  3. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    It is still early for the C-Max & Fusion, but Toyota hybrids, on average are at or close to their combined mpg.
    Your MPG Estimates
    Your MPG Estimates
    Your MPG Estimates
     
  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I would throw out the prius c as an outlier on behavior. IMHO drining profiles are likely to be different and that may be a large part of the 3.1 mpg difference given the same epa. Unless you standardize somehow for driver/route I don't think we get a valid comparison.
    The 3 generations of prii should have similar profiles though and there is a 4.5 mpg increase in-spite of increased interior volume and weight.
    active grill shutters, direct injection, and lower rolling resistance are likely.

    camera's instead of mirors is against safety regulations in the US, so that won't be happening. smaller traction battery in the prius c was a cost cutting measure not an efficiency measure, it likely hurt efficiency.


    IMHO toyota will likely take a split with the aqua, leaving that as the low cost harsh seat pad car:) The reviewers seem to really like the reduced road noise in the c-max with it's noise cancelling audio and more sound insulation. I would not count that out of the next gen prius liftback.
     
  5. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    yeah, i know... thats what I am saying... is it going to be real 20% improvement, or will it be "gaming" the EPA system like Ford? Maybe 50/50?

    Maybe we will get 54 MPG on Fuelly and 60 MPG on the sticker.

    Austin - those things wont increase MPG of Prius by 20%. Maybe some other inefficient old car , but not Prius. For instance, I doubt DI will increase efficiency significantly, if we read Toyota papers about D4 from 2005/2006, we will see that they said that efficiency gains are all over the place (I guess thats why they made D4S), but that real benefit is power which is increased 8% steadily across the power curve. There is also Valvematic that does similar thing.
     
  6. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Toyota hybrids have a good track record of meeting EPA estimates. We know next gen gas engines can have improvement in thermal efficiency (38% -> 45%). Gen4 is supposed to be lighter and perhaps more aerodynamic. All these things point to higher MPG.

    Recent Ford hybrids have higher EPA estimates despite the gained weight with bigger gas engine size. Something doesn't add up.
     
  7. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I wasn't making the claim that people would get 60 mpg in this car, I was mearly commenting on what was likely to improve on bob's list.

    I would say ICE and tire improvements are likely to be the biggest ones.

    Toyota claims 42% thermal efficiency in the lab with a normally aspirated di engine, which is a 10% improvement in peak efficiency versus the current prius engine. We don't know how much of that will make the gen IV car. DI should allow more efficiency at lower power ranges and lower speed - less friction - at higher power ranges. It all depends on the whole package. valvematic reduces pumping and throttling losses which already are reduced with the atkinson hybrid in the prius, so that wouldn't help much. It will help turbocharged efficiency though for different car. It seemed on some toyota interview the question was really whether the likely 8% likely extra efficiency by using di (4 mpg) would be worth the extra cost. I think they will do it in the next car. More efficient engine with better battery/software should gain you a real 10% (5mpg).

    Then the question is will lower rolling resistance tires, more aerodynamic body, lighter weight gain you another 10%. I doubt it but would like to see what toyota comes up with before passing any judgement. They can definitely do this engineering wise, but there are cost/styling/comfort trade offs.
     
  8. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    in lab they claim up to 10% improvement, but thats the lab and not car in production... I am sure they could get 60 MPG with car costing 26k, not 23k...

    As to the weight, aero and the rest, 10% extra from very efficient Prius doesnt seem likely...

    but hey lets see that... I am just saying that IMHO half of the gains might not end up being reproducible in real life. 50 MPG is already very efficient for hybrid even.

    And Toyota has to end up using same tricks as rest of the crew because people will buy based on the sticker and word of mouth might spread only a lot later in car's lifecycle... for instance Sonata's crappy hybrid system that had more than 10 recalls in first 6-7 months of existence didnt matter much, people still buy the car because it looks nice and gets decent mpg on paper.

    Checking on fuelly, on average, Camry overall gets 10 MPG more than Sonata over all cars for 2012.... freaking 10 MPG overall. 5 mpg for hybrid extra, and probably more for Turbo vs Camry V6.

    Imagine if people saw Fuelly sticker on the car and not gamed EPA.

    So my own prediction is that everyone will game the system as much as it can in the future, because these reality doesnt come down to the end customer until it is too late. And in the end, with everyone gaming the system, everyone will be on the same starting point at EPA.

    You might not get EPA, but you will be able to compare between cars, which is why EPA ratings were made in the first place.
     
  9. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    Keep in mind that the Prius does not come with the lowest rolling resistance tires on the market and new tires are coming out all the time. A simple swap to a more efficient tire can create a 2mpg-3mpg gain vs. the current OE tires. I imagine there will be tires that could boost mpg by 4-5mpg within a few years.
     
  10. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    cwerdna likes this.
  11. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    as you can see, he states that it gets a lot better fuel mileage than Prius, even if he got 37.5 :). Field has to be leveled.
     
  12. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    C-Max hybrid review, compared with Prius Liftback, shows average mpg: 38.2.
     
  13. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    The whole Prius V / C max comparison baffles me. Rear cargo with rear seat up . . . . 34 cubic feet versus 24 cubic feet. What am I missing.
     
  14. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Toyota and Ford both give journalist competitive information on prius v versus c-max. The are the only two vehcilces called CUV hybrids. Isn't that enough

    Pretty much the run down from the articles

    c-max
    acceleration
    handling
    fun to drive
    epa mpg - (journalist mpg appears to be a draw)
    materials
    passenger compartment (but not by much)
    noise
    phone/ipod integration

    prius v
    cargo behind rear seats (big difference)
    cargo behind front seats (small advantage)
    smoothness of hsd
    Toyota reputation

    versus the prius, the other closest competitor
    the prius adds
    mpg (both epa and journalist)
    price

    But loses out on
    passenger compartment, and cargo space. Here c-max has big advantage behind the front seats, behind back seats it depends on the shape of the stuff.

    Not mentioned by journalists, but by F8L
    exterior looks - IMHO the prii look better to me than the c-max, but the fusion hybrid/energi looks beter than the prii. The fusion has the lowest cargo volume though, but a locking trunk, which may bring the camry hybrid into this discussion. The camry hybrid is outselling both the c-max and prius v:)
     
  15. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    Don't forget that the 99.7 cubic ft of passenger compartment space in the C-Max includes extra headroom or unusable ceiling space if you will, of a short wheelbased tall wagon; 104.3 vs. 106.3 inches for the Prius liftback,
    Prius v on the other hand: