1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Gen II Prius Individual Battery Module Replacement

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by ryousideways, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2011
    953
    997
    0
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    II
    For Gen II Prius years 2004 to 2009. Bank 1 is opposite the ECU. Bank 14 is next to the ECU.

    Brad
     
    Ultanium likes this.
  2. ozmatt

    ozmatt Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2015
    571
    234
    0
    Location:
    australia
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    One
    i seen a post on here somewhere of a battery that caught fire possibly because of nuts that were not tight, be careful with your nuts.
     
    Ultanium likes this.
  3. S Keith

    S Keith Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    799
    328
    0
    Location:
    AZ
    Vehicle:
    2003 Prius
    Yep. Brad posted that a while back. Scary.
     
    ozmatt likes this.
  4. ozmatt

    ozmatt Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2015
    571
    234
    0
    Location:
    australia
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    One
    hi everyone :)

    anyone know where this piece goes? was sitting on my bench after I moved the pack

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Ultanium

    Ultanium Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2015
    51
    49
    0
    Location:
    Houston
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Isn't this the clip for the vent hose?

    Update on my 07 pack. I have non-stop trouble codes, and after every reset, it pops up another block getting weak. Voltages look good, so does the resistance on TIS, so I have no idea what is going on. Every time it is a different block, no ryme or reason...

    Tj
     
  6. ozmatt

    ozmatt Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2015
    571
    234
    0
    Location:
    australia
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    One
    Not sure I will check the vent hose tomorrow, thanks.

    Bad news about your pack! did you discharge all your modules at least once each using the reaktors and were the reaktors powered via 12v deep cycle battery to get full discharge capacity? (20A)

    Deep cycle 12v battery (as input power source) is needed for the reactors to damper discharge at 20A otherwise the reaktors only discharge "internally" and the rate is much less than 20A, you really need to perform close to 20A discharge test on each module anything less you may not spot the weak modules.
     
  7. S Keith

    S Keith Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    799
    328
    0
    Location:
    AZ
    Vehicle:
    2003 Prius
    Did you meticulously clean your bus bars and sensing wires? Double check all the connections to the ECU?
     
  8. ozmatt

    ozmatt Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2015
    571
    234
    0
    Location:
    australia
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    One
    Hit the road today in my project car with freshly rebuilt pack, so far its been excellent! many thanks to everyone that has contributed to this fabulous thread it really is a whirlpool of information right here, special thanks to S Keith for all your help over the last couple weeks your a true gentleman Steve I cant thank you enough
     
    usnavystgc likes this.
  9. kiwi

    kiwi Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    245
    85
    0
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius c
    Model:
    N/A
    Toyota has issued Technical Bulletin in 2015 regarding identification of the swapped modules in the pack (i.e. the pack has been fiddled with, all or few modules have been replaced, manufacture dates are not the same etc). Why? Because the battery swap voids the warranty.

    Point is: nowadays when batteries in such a demand you cannot trust what is in that second hand car – whether it is genuine or not. You cannot trust what is in that wreck – the wreck yard guy would swear “the car was running before the crash…” Recent example – wrecker said – the car the battery came from was 2009. I’ve checked the serial numbers – appeared to be 2004. Not cool.

    What is more important to you when you source the donor modules – how would you know “it is good enough?”

    I’ve recently published couple of 7 minute videos in HD to give you visual of what is happening with the batteries in the idle mode, under the load and when the load has been removed. That will give you an idea of why the “individual module replacement” could fail in many cases. Enjoy:

    Part 1 Prius Individual Module Testing with Voltmeter:



    Part 2 Comparative Test of 20 Prius Modules with HV Battery Analyser:

     
  10. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2004
    4,365
    3,210
    1
    Location:
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Two
  11. ozmatt

    ozmatt Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2015
    571
    234
    0
    Location:
    australia
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    One
    Not that I know anything ... Some good points come from Kiwi, also some utter nonsense.

    - Void what warranty? most people doing this are way out of warranty hence them taking this job on to begin with.

    - Maybe I just got lucky! I found another full pack built on the exact same day as the pack that I was working on (017G) therefore it was easy for me to replace the bad module in my pack, all 28 modules in the said pack look to be original to the pack but there is one (yes just one) odd module and I bet you couldn't pick it with your finest magnifying glass or your precious analyser!. Also modules within packs are not always date coded the same day, generally within a few days of each other but quite often not the exact same day.

    - Don't simply "trust" the seller of any second hand goods full stop! maybe I am paranoid but I would expect (some not all) sellers to say an 04 pack is from an 09, if seller is aware the parts in question suit from years "X to X" there is a strong chance said dealer may say "pretty sure that pack was removed from a 2009" the same can happen for engines, gearboxes, body panels, computers, whitegoods, furniture electrical goods pretty much everything! "buyer beware" that's life! make sure you know what your buying don't just dumb your way through a deal expecting the seller to be as honest as yourself lol, unfortunately its not that perfect world, keep your guard up!.

    - "the only way" to do comparative test is with the hv battery analyser cmon! one would have to be pretty naïve to believe that, sure your analyser would make life pretty darn easy and I am sure its a great thing and very effective but lets be honest, there is definitely more than one way to skin this cat. Techstream is your most reliable tool for comparing module comparative performance under load, good enough for Toyota engineers then its good enough for me!.

    Cheers (y)

    Matt
     
  12. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2004
    4,365
    3,210
    1
    Location:
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Toyota is checking packs under warranty to make sure they have not been tampered with.
    So if you buy a replacement pack from them and have an issue with it, they will check it out before honoring the warranty.
     
  13. ozmatt

    ozmatt Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2015
    571
    234
    0
    Location:
    australia
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    One
    hi Eric that's interesting thanks for elaborating, guess that means Toyota had a few warranty packs come back that were not the packs they actually sold, and they have cottoned on to it. Criminal behaviour

    Packs are so expensive there is bound to be shenanigans

    sorry I should say the packs returned were not housing the corresponding replacement modules upon receipt to toyota
     
  14. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2004
    4,365
    3,210
    1
    Location:
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Most rebuilders supply the packs fully assembled, so they put security strips on the packs.
    Toyota supplies the pack incomplete and many internal parts from the old pack must be transferred to the new pack. Therefore, there isn't any security tape on them.
    I'm sure rebuilders and Toyota open up the packs to inspect the modules when packs are returned for warranty replacement.
     
  15. ozmatt

    ozmatt Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2015
    571
    234
    0
    Location:
    australia
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    One
    Have seen how Toyota packs are supplied and can see how this could be a problem for some, particularly Toyota. Scammers will try it on for just about anything these days and expensive things generally get targeted the most, which makes hybrid packs a red hot target!

    Im sure rebuilders would be taking notes and pictures of all module and pack serials before passing on the goods to customers, what happens back at Toyota should not effect rebuilders.

    Not sure if Toyota would have any love for rebuilders, pretty sure they would see it as "Unauthorised business" of which is out of there control, in one hand rebuilders are proof the batteries are longer lasting than some might think, on the other hand for every one battery a rebuilder sells is one Toyota did not.
     
  16. Texas Hybrid Batteries

    Texas Hybrid Batteries Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    270
    550
    3
    Location:
    Dallas -Fort Worth
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    It's interesting that you guys are talking about this, the truth is that the issue that Toyota might have is NOT that they aren't selling batteries but that people are choosing not to trade in their cars. Not one customer of mine would have been willing to spend the price for a new battery from Toyota so I don't think I'm taking anything away from Toyota's service department. I am however making it affordable for people to keep driving their older Prius' which could in theory prevent them from going and buying a new one. Ironically the parts guys love me because I buy 4 - 5 new batteries a month from them and that makes their numbers look really good.

    Matt
     
  17. ozmatt

    ozmatt Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2015
    571
    234
    0
    Location:
    australia
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    One
    Hi Matt ..

    Yep so true I overlooked the big picture, couldn't see the forest through the trees! at the end of the day I guess Toyo are established enough to look past a small percentage of conservative (smart) people getting extended use from older "rebuilt" cars and not buying new cars. As you said most people with a 12yo Prius don't want to spend the big bucks on a brand new pack for an aging rig with ever depreciating value, however these people might not want to shell out for a brand car either this is where rebuilders strive.

    In any case you could bet that Toyo wouldn't care for the business of rebuilding, it spoils their fun! reasons to dismiss the idea totally outweigh the reasons to acknowledge it as a feasible option otherwise Toyota would offer a rebuild service alternative themselves

    Matt
     
  18. 2nd gen owner

    2nd gen owner New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2015
    4
    3
    0
    Location:
    idaho
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I used a EC250-90 Electrophoresis supply. For this one, I had to put a small load to get it to start up without an alarm, I used a 7W nightlight. Then once the voltage came up I switched in the battery and removed the nightlight while the current was ramping up. I used 2x75W bulbs in series to limit the current to about 350mA, this also tapers off the current automatically as the voltage rises. On this supply, the current setting (up to 500mA) seems to be where it will trip off, not where it will limit. So one alarm/trip for no load and one alarm/trip for overcurrent. I am not recommending this to anyone, BTW. And I do like the diode idea.
    I did 3 charge with 2 discharge cycles (2x150W bulbs) in a failed attempt to bring back one bad module, it just got worse (lower than the rest when discharging and higher than the rest when charging, also the cooling fan goes on immediately). But it did increase the capacity of the pack based on anecdotal evidence of the energy bars changing more slowly driving down/up the hill to/from work. This after replacing the bad module. Sorry no data and graphs, but maybe some ideas for those playing with this type of power supply.
     
  19. S Keith

    S Keith Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    799
    328
    0
    Location:
    AZ
    Vehicle:
    2003 Prius
    My most recent attempt to use the bio-rad again failed. Tried many settings. Diode used, but it never worked for any significant period of time. I may try your in-line bulbs to see if it works.

    I just purchased an EC570-90. Hopefully, I'll have better luck.
     
  20. kiwi

    kiwi Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    245
    85
    0
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius c
    Model:
    N/A
    There are plenty of options to schoose from when it comes to High Voltage High Amp Isolated Programmable Power Supply on the market (some are made in USA) but that is only if you are going mainstream ...
    My chargers are currently 1-2A max (depends on the model).
    One of my existing clients who uses one but feels he now needs even more is going to try the industrial grade power supply - charging at about 6 Ams.
    We've got the quotes. The price from the vendor seems to add $1000 NZD/AUD for every amp the power supply can deliver, ....
    That was the main reason I came up with my own solution. Industrial ones use more or less the same design principle - isolated high frequency switched mode power supply with the constant current add-on, but they have a lot of useless (for us) features, which of course makes schematics more complicated, involve more controllers and come at a cost.

    Got yesterday a screenshot from another shop. They have tested 12000 km (7456 miles) original (not rebuilt) Lexus battery (40 modules) with my Analyser at about 8Amp at the start of the test (passive load) . Current dropped to about 6A at the end of the load test. Series of 20 modules tested little bit over 6AH with the max DeltaV on individual modules 0.5V at the end of the test. Took less than an hour to test 20 individual modules but of course little bit more to charge those with my 1.5A charger... That is kind of a test I suggest to be done on the bench after you have rebuilt the pack.