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How long after traction battery failure?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by AAA, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. AAA

    AAA Junior Member

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    Relattively new to Prius.
    Driving used.
    With coming holidays and travel, I am torn between cancelling the trip or taking that chance.
    Just two days ago I got exiting news through festive illumination of the whole dash board and joyful beeping (or was it bl**eeping? I don't recall).
    After getting home and exchanging for a dry pair of pants, ScanGauge revealed code P3023 (BATTERY BLOCK 13 BECOMES WEAK)
    I am aware of cheap(-ish) battery replacement and actually prefer to do $3K Lithium one, but next two weeks we were planning to be 1000 ml away, not search for a "guy" and have Prius in-accessible...

    THE QUESTION:
    (and I pray for your holiday giving spirit:)
    How long does it take to actually stop dead after the first occurrence? (provided it is only ONE block)

    Cleared the codes, revving up engine behaved since, intense blowing in the rear (battery ventilation) gone.
    Happened again on the highway, checked in motion: same code. Cleared in route and continued.
    After the first incident acceleration was hard. But with cleared codes all became normal. With an adjustment of even gentler driving.
    Drove two days without error codes.
     
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  2. nh7o

    nh7o Off grid since 1980

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    There is no way to answer your question with certainty. It is totally unknown when things will degrade more. You might check the battery cooling fan to make sure it is clean and doing its best.

    Note that when going on level terrain at constant speed the battery is not used, and so you can go indefinitely in that condition. It is only when the weak battery has to work hard that the it will cause problems. It depends on your route as to whether your car is risky or just tolerably weak.
     
  3. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    keep us updated
     
  4. AAA

    AAA Junior Member

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    Thanks
    Why?
    Is the battery heating much when degrading?
    BTW, does that fan works harder because of error code (as general adjustment preset in computer) or does it respond to some kind of a temperature sensor?..
     
  5. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    Yes a bad cell can cause it to heat up more and yes it has a temperature sensor that the fan speed responds to. If you have time it wouldn't hurt to take a quick look at the rear cooling fan to make sure it's not gunked up (as it happens quite a lot). See Fur and dirt causing major battery problems | Page 2 | PriusChat

    I don't think anyone can say for certain how long you can nurse it along like it is, but the more you can avoid deep discharge cycles then the better your chances. If for example the long trip involves mountain passes then I'd avoid trying it.

    Tell us a little bit about your commute and where the battery struggles the most (as in rapid swings in SOC). Large hills and cold starts are typically where the battery gets hammered the hardest. If you can take about one minute to let the engine warm (idle with transmission in "P") before taking off then it helps the battery a lot. Also if hot (you haven't shown your location) then windows down and aircon off for the first minute or two of driving can also help.
     
  6. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    How long exactly have you had the Prius AAA? The fact that some of these codes can be cleared and stay off for some time means that there's always a risk that the person is selling because they know that a problem is pending. Perhaps this is what happened in your case. :(
     
  7. AAA

    AAA Junior Member

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    Taking approach: if it goes to hell - I might as well have some fun with it.
    Purpose of this thread was: if it happened just before a planned 2 weeks trip, how long could we prolong the agony (and may be amend this with tricks in driving/usage)

    Cancelled trip. But pursuing the original (imaginary now) scenario: extending it's life just a bit longer.

    I've seen the battery inside: it is essentially a million standard size AA batteries soldered together. With those, when they loose capacity, I use refresh charger: couple of charge-discharge cycles until capacity stops improving with each cycle. To replicate on Prius: drive slow, back roads, no highways. Watching energy display: as soon as engine kicks in take my foot off accelerator. Could keep battery around 2 bars, tried hard to get to one bar without success. Speeds gradually declined to ~10 ml/hr, even if leveled surface, accelerate and then try to keep the speed - engine kicks in. Only was able to use battery to decrease the slow down, not keep up with the speed (talking about 45-40-35 even 20 ml/h, initially though kept fine if under ~35 ml/h, but that's with 3-4-5 bars on battery). Did that for an hour, driving slower, than I would be otherwise, but where I would be driving anyway. So, lost only time, ~half hour so far. Mileage was surprisingly high: 72 overall (understandable with slow speeds), despite current mpg when engine works consistently ~20-30 mpg and frequently as low as 8 mpg for when accelerating (slo-o-o-owly, mind you)

    Later occurred to me that I can just park it and leave it on: when I was stopped on a hot day with AC on it depleted battery to 1 bar and then started the engine to recharge. Now, if I leave it without anything on it will deplete even slower, which is the best way to refresh: slowly fully discharge, then fully charge. It is in my back yard doing that right now. I already heard it start, checked - forgot the headlights on. Now turned them of, waiting on results. Checked display though: it doesn't let the battery to go beyond 2 bars - starts the engine to recharge at 2 bars.

    P.S. I know is supposed to be done individually with each cell;
    I am going to replace with $3k lithium pack the whole battery;
    but those are the subjects for another thread: I am just trying to extend a dying battery on the cheap, on the go and without skills :)
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    all the best! can't wait to hear more about a lithium pack.(y)
     
  9. AAA

    AAA Junior Member

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    Is there ACTUAL experience someone had with codes showing up and eventually being un-able to drive?
    I am looking for those practical ##, like you know: when fill up light is up, but you can go 60-100 ml more..
     
  10. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    Not really.

    If you've got a weak cell the thing you're most likely to achieve by driving it down to one bar is to reverse bias and further damage that cell. If I was trying to nurse the pack for a few weeks until you can get it replaced then I'd be trying to do the opposite, that is to NOT cycle it too much. Read the tips in my previous post on how to achieve this.
     
  11. AAA

    AAA Junior Member

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    OK, I actually was looking at a lithium one, but it is in principal what the original Toyota's battery is, isn't it?
     
  12. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    Yeah, the Toyota battery is constructed from prismatic NiMH modules, so they don't look much at all like AA's. But yes it's still a whole bunch of them in series.

    AAA, can you tell us the specific driving conditions (terrain, driving style, battery state of charge) that provoked the battery error codes in the past. This might be a good way to predict what to avoid if we were trying to nurse along a weak battery.

    Many people here may be interested in your results, but remember that few people here will have had direct experience of a failing battery. So we're relying on you to provide the details. :)
     
  13. AAA

    AAA Junior Member

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    Codes appeared:
    1) highway, aggressive driving (was late), flat surface, evening time, Florida, T ~65F , end of 25 ml trip, 1,5 people in, no load, cabin fan was on, no AC. Revving engine, even on neutral, battery fan on all the time, climate control and cruise control were disabled (I thought at first that fan was going crazy for climate control)
    2) highway, gentle driving, but up to ~70 mph, no load, no AC, T ~75F. Code cleared in route, reappeared in 3 minutes - repeated flash. No incidents since (2 days), mixed driving. Even tried provoking by accelerating aggressively.

    Code was 3023
     
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  14. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    Ok. Watch out for aggressive driving prior to the engine running for at least a minute or so. This really hammers the battery. Like I said before, the best thing you can do to be kind to the battery is to warm the engine before driving. I know it sounds strange but I can assure you it's true.
     
  15. AAA

    AAA Junior Member

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    Drove routinely (meaning: after discharging-recharging while parked for hours)
    Felt like it has more perk now in battery only mode... When charged to ~6 bars that is.
    May be subjective, but I wasn't expecting that at all
     
  16. AAA

    AAA Junior Member

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    meanwhile checked around for exchange:
    1) lithium >$3K, 250K warranty, install and test for a week
    2) made out of 3Gen cells battery (for 2Gen) with 2 years warranty in a day $2500
    3) new battery for $2300 (unclear: they ship, have local installers) 3 y. w.
    4) (same as above place) refurbished $1400 18 mth warranty
    5) local "guy" $800 with his warranty...
     
  17. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

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    Where is the lithium battery available at?
     
  18. nh7o

    nh7o Off grid since 1980

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    Too many variables. Most of the reports here are just like yours. Engine racing, poor acceleration, battery fan on full, warning lights. Most people would say that is close enough to "unable to drive". One case drove 200 miles on the highway to get the battery replaced in NC, by going at a very even speed and avoiding fast starts as much as possible.
     
  19. AAA

    AAA Junior Member

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    I thought I reported the results...
    Well, three years later: that time I made it through several days, gentle driving at first, mixed later and even tried aggressive for a while as a test. All in all after several clearing of the error codes in one (or was it two?) trips, had no problem whatsoever...
    In the end decided to change the main battery anyway because of an upcoming LONG trip.
    Made total >150 ml, driving from mild to outright aggressive (basically TRYING to kill the battery in the end).
    I did though put the car in my back yard, "ON" and left it for a day. This was to let it nicely discharge-charge, coming from experience of refreshing regular utility batteries. Do not pretend to understand the theory of that, but I had no problems after that...

    P.S. replacement lasted >3 years:
    Has anyone ever used hybridbatteryexperts | Page 3 | PriusChat

    P.P.S. Lithium were here li-on.us, but these are "experimental"
     
  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    sorry you didn't get to try li-on, that would have been a treat. they better hurry up, or there won't be any market left.:p