Legislation to raise sales cap for federal tax credit

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by mercat68, Apr 10, 2019.

  1. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    but it does make it a bipartisan bill
     
  2. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    If you listened to the rhetoric...

    In reality, hydrogen was always a complimentary tech. There are some applications in certain localities where it would work well. Starting with small test vehicles with a diverse set of users still makes sense. The narrative of one solution for all never did.

    This is why looking at the bigger picture is necessary. EV and FCEV will co-exist, just like other tech of the past... for example, diesel was primarily for commercial use and gas for personal transportation.
     
    #42 john1701a, Apr 12, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    But they aren't the only one making the shift.

    And everyone is shifting to crossovers and SUVs. It is what the public is buying. Some of the offerings have plugs. At least one of the VW IDs is a crossover.
    Off the top pf my head, there is the X, Outlander, and the Volvos available now. Then the Escape and Aviator next year, and Y sometime after that.
    Then the US is not the world. There are more options in other markets.
    It also ignores the local benefit of moving vehicle emissions out of residential and metro areas to a centralized source that is easier to monitor and improve.
     
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  4. smyles

    smyles Active Member

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    Rhetoric?? Check how much BMW (and few others) invested in hydrogen cars and infrastructure, before writing it off.

    And yeah, big picture tells us 10+ years of subsidies here in US were pretty much a waste, well except for Tesla: the rest just played the game w/o truly significant outcome for us consumers.
     
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  5. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Yup, much like you just posted with your one solution for all conclusion.
     
  6. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

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    Many “blue” states are also charging registration fees for EV and PHEV, if that’s the “penalty” you refer to.
     
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  7. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

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    And the most beneficial in terms of overall gasoline use. These are the vehicles that consume the most fuel, so improvements there save the most fuel.
     
  8. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That is how "Know Your Audience" came about, from similar statements 14 years ago... way back when Two-Mode emerged as a technology promoted as far superior to Prius... complete with a plug-in hybrid model targeted for 2009.

    When Two-Mode was finally rolled out, the targeted audience didn't care. Mainstream consumers were not impressed. Large savings of gas in terms of a few MPG improvement wasn't a priority for them. Sales floundered from the very beginning. Rollout was such a disaster, the next-generation design intention for a small car platform was disassociated with the one for large vehicles, showcased as a fresh start. Despite that, it turned out to be a sales disaster for the very same reason. Volt didn't appeal to mainstream consumers either.

    Knowing your audience means understanding how to appeal to them. Lesson learned was selling the idea of "most fuel" to someone who drives a guzzler with no concern for guzzling simply won't be interested. Gas is cheap and they are unwilling to try something new.

    This is exactly why some of us knew from the start tax-credits would be wasted by a legacy automaker like GM. We saw from the early days of development that Volt was being created for the wrong reason. Those that wanted to save the most fuel were not their own loyal customers. That compact plug-in hybrid hatchback didn't target the right audience. It was opportunity missed, intentionally.

    It was obvious that a smaller battery-pack would reduce cost, weight, and complexity of Volt without much of an overall loss of MPG. That electric-only drive could reach a much larger audience and could more easily be ported to other vehicle platforms. GM simply wasn't interested. Whether GM was just resting on its laurels or being afraid of the paradigm-shift, outcome is undeniable... tax-credits didn't result in a shift of their basic offerings at dealerships.

    That's why this topic of raising the limit for tax-credits is such a hot discussion. Why would we want more of the same?
     
  9. yaun

    yaun Member

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    The PHEV / BEV technology itself is mature enough to stand on its own. Just spreading money around without conditions isn't a solution to anything. What is missing is infrastructure and technology to make owning a BEV more practical to the general consumer.

    If you don't own a garage, then owning a BEV is a non starter. If you frequently have to drive beyond the max range, the same. Charging stations are just too rare to be of any real use and charging is still too slow and needs to come closer to a trip to a gas station.

    They should use some money to create incentives for building public charging stations. Give more incentives in urban centers where the majority of residents cannot charge their car without a charging station, so that some street side charging options start showing up (which are non existent at this point).

    Some money can still go to car manufactures/buyers but it should be attached to breaking real adoption bottlenecks, such as charging x kWh in a limited amount of time. First 500k cars sold that manage to hit the goal will get an incentive, regardless of manufacturer. Stagger the goals to be increasingly ambitious.

    And they should make it income tax neutral, i.e. tax gasoline higher and use this money for the incentives instead of letting it come out of the general budget. The best incentive for adopting more fuel efficient cars are higher gas prices.
     
  10. bruceha_2000

    bruceha_2000 Senior Member

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    I don't have a garage and I charge at home ;)
    I would change your statement to something like "For those that can not charge at home, owning a BEV is a non starter".
    And I totally agree with that. From what little I can find, the price of charging at public stations is WAY higher than the price of gas. And, at least around here, they are generally not located where a person is likely to spend 2.5 hours doing something while the car charges. And that is just for our little batteries. How long does it take to charge a 200+ mile Bolt or Tesla on an L2 charger?
     
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  11. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Rule of Thumb: a 40-amp line will deliver 200 miles in 8 hours.
     
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  12. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    I agree that there needs to be more infrastructure. But it does no good to have a lots of unused chargers sitting idle for everyone to see.
    Primarily people should want to buy a BEV or PHEV and be able to charge at home (and/or work). For BEV there needs to be fast chargers on highways.
    If there are lots of BEVs, the local chargers will follow...maybe it doesn't seem like if from Boston.
    But here in CA it is happening.
    2 blocks from my house there are two L2 chargers on the street plus 4 more in a city parking lot. An apartment complex has two L2 public chargers just 1 block away. A large strip mall 4 blocks in another direction has two free L2 chargers (always busy, I've charged there once in the last 2 years). And then a mile away there is a parking garage at a 2 year old outdoor mall that has about 30 L2 chargers and 6 or 8 Tesla superchargers. None of these existed when I bought my PIP.
    I don't know how many of these chargers were installed due to federal incentives...but they wouldn't keep installing them if there weren't lots of EVs in the area.

    Mike
     
  13. smyles

    smyles Active Member

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    Can't speak for CA, but here in DC metro area paid chargers make little to no financial sense for both owners and consumers. So the idea of subsiding charging stations so they could sells electricity at 'home' rates is actually a good one.
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Gas is cheaper because the station makes their money selling other stuff. For a public charger, the parking space is only other stuff they have to sell.

    On top of that, some regions don't let anybody but the electric utility charge per watt delivered. Try picturing how a gas station would charge for fuel if they weren't allowed to charge per gallon pumped.

    The charger fees should come down some with more EVs using them, as the pricing now needs to cover the fixed costs for chargers seeing little to no use. But chargers need to be allowed to directly charge for electricity for pricing transparency between the fuel and parking fees. Otherwise, the charger company is stuck charging by time, and that means assuming the fastest charging car using it, which then overcharges the lower charging cars, and discourages PHEVs from using public charges.

    AC Level 2 chargers really only work as destination chargers; at hotels, work, or home for those with longer daily drives. Public charging to support EVs that can't charge at home will need to be Level 1 or 2 DC. The faster charge rates means we can support more cars per charger.
     
  15. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    I’m starting to think some recent activity
    Unlike Toyota, GM to build a US Battery Factory | Page 4 | PriusChat

    pertains to the bill discussed in this thread getting new life recently.
    (sorry about the cross posts, didn’t realize this same bill is revigorated with newfound bipartisan support)

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2019/12/15/tesla-cybertruck-for-33000-congress-is-looking-at-renewing-ev-tax-credit/amp/

    However there is a 2024 fixed sunset now added, despite the 600,000 per manufacturer ceiling.
    Not sure if I like the short time the credit will be valid.

    In my mind it will be no different than saying unlimited tax credits until 2024,
    which is likely not enough time considering all the EV demerits taking hold.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/insideevs.com/news/388159/ev-tax-credit-extension-explained/amp/

    ah well, We’ll see, I’m told it didn’t make it into the Omnibus but can find no evidence of that yet (or what made it through committee.
     
    #55 Rmay635703, Dec 16, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
  16. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    #56 Rmay635703, Dec 17, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
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