1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Polar Ice for 2017

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by bwilson4web, Mar 22, 2017.

  1. Paranormal Rob

    Paranormal Rob Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2017
    244
    107
    1
    Location:
    RDU NC
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Five
  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,743
    11,328
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Does anyone actually read past the news article title?

    "According to the new analysis of satellite data, the Antarctic ice sheet showed a net gain of 112 billion tons of ice a year from 1992 to 2001. That net gain slowed to 82 billion tons of ice per year between 2003 and 2008."
    So ice is still accumulating in Antarctica, but the rate is slowing down.

    "But it might only take a few decades for Antarctica’s growth to reverse, according to Zwally. “If the losses of the Antarctic Peninsula and parts of West Antarctica continue to increase at the same rate they’ve been increasing for the last two decades, the losses will catch up with the long-term gain in East Antarctica in 20 or 30 years -- I don’t think there will be enough snowfall increase to offset these losses.”"
    In less than two decades, the Antarctic could be losing ice.

    Things being 'less bad' doesn't disprove the basic premise.
     
  3. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2006
    4,519
    390
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    This article illustrates that the Grace satellite measurements are worthless.
    Trollbait what you are quoting about calving may be true.If it does occur it wont have anything to do with global warming or co2 .
    The only warming affecting Antartica is geothermal volcanic.
    You Warmistas were wrong past present and future.

     
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,141
    15,399
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Sorry, I didn't see which article you were referencing. So I did a quick check of the usual sources:
    https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/land-ice/

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,743
    11,328
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    "The study analyzed changes in the surface height of the Antarctic ice sheet measured by radar altimeters on two European Space Agency European Remote Sensing (ERS) satellites, spanning from 1992 to 2001, and by the laser altimeter on NASA’s Ice, Cloud, and land Elevation Satellite (ICESat) from 2003 to 2008."
    https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/nasa-study-mass-gains-of-antarctic-ice-sheet-greater-than-losses

    It disagres with other studies on the net ice mass change in on area of the Antarctic. They see a net gain, but the amount of that gain is decreasing with time. If their conclusion is the reality on the ground, it leaves us with the question on sea level rise. If Antarctic ice loss hasn't been a reason in the rise that is seen to date, then what is?
     
    fuzzy1 and bwilson4web like this.
  6. Paranormal Rob

    Paranormal Rob Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2017
    244
    107
    1
    Location:
    RDU NC
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Five
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,141
    15,399
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Thanks! I needed the reference:
    • surface height, 1992-01 and 2003-08 - reports more volume and using assumptions on density, calculate the mass.
    • GRACE, 2002-2016 (current) - measures mass and reports a decrease
    When I first read the surface height study, it sounded more like a promotion of the ICESat-2 mission. Regardless, earth observing satellite missions involve 'ground truth' surveys as part of the calibration. I suspect somewhere around 2019 we'll see the results of ICESat-2 with more details comparing ground truth versus airborne and ground metrics.

    Now you've raised a good question about sea level change versus land ice loss. If the analysis of the earlier surface data is accurate, then something is growing the sea level much faster ... a nice puzzle. But it begs the question of did they also use the same technique to analyze Greenland?

    If their technique and data applied to Greenland surface levels also shows an accumulation, well that would be interesting because Greenland has many more observations. That is an obvious hole in their report (i.e., the summary.) Getting the formal report would be a good first step and searching the 'usual suspects' to see if they did a Greenland analysis too.

    LATE THOUGHT:
    Sorry I didn't mention this before but I remember some recent reports of liquid water in the 'snow packs'. Since this is fairly recent, I wonder if it would change the earlier results?
    Water is streaming across Antarctica: New survey finds liquid flow more widespread than thought

    Bob Wilson
     
    #67 bwilson4web, Jun 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
  8. Paranormal Rob

    Paranormal Rob Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2017
    244
    107
    1
    Location:
    RDU NC
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Five
  9. Paranormal Rob

    Paranormal Rob Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2017
    244
    107
    1
    Location:
    RDU NC
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Five
    Climate Change: No, It’s Not a 97 Percent Consensus | National Review



    The “97 percent” statistic first appeared prominently in a 2009 study by University of Illinois master’s student Kendall Zimmerman and her adviser, Peter Doran. Based on a two-question online survey, Zimmerman and Doran concluded that “the debate on the authenticity of global warming and the role played by human activity is largely nonexistent among those who understand the nuances and scientific bases of long-term climate processes” — even though only 5 percent of respondents, or about 160 scientists, were climate scientists.

    In fact, the “97 percent” statistic was drawn from an even smaller subset: the 79 respondents who were both self-reported climate scientists and had “published more than 50% of their recent peer-reviewed papers on the subject of climate change.”

    These 77 scientists agreed that global temperatures had generally risen since 1800, and that human activity is a “significant contributing factor.”



    A year later, William R. Love Anderegg, a student at Stanford University, used Google Scholar to determine that “97–98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field surveyed here support the tenets of ACC [anthropogenic climate change] outlined by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.”

    The sample size did not much improve on Zimmerman and Doran’s: Anderegg surveyed about 200 scientists



    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  10. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,115
    10,044
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,743
    11,328
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    It's right in the title, Mass gains of the Antarctic ice sheet exceed losses. So no looking at Greenland.
    https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/zwally-antarctica-study.pdf

    Posted by Watts Up with That, and it is evidence that they do not read the articles either. Here is the last line from the conclusion of the paper. "If dynamic thinning continues to increase at the same rate of 4 Gta–2 with no offset from further increases in snowfall, the positive balance of the AIS will decrease from the recent 82 Gta–1 to zero in � 20 years. However, compensating increases in snowfall with climate warming may also be expected (Gregory and Huybrechts, 2006; Winkelmann and others, 2012)."

    Let's accept that this paper does trump other previous and later sources on the Antarctic's ice mass. In about 18 years, the paper was published in 2015, the decreasing rate of ice mass growth for each year will hit the point where the losses balance out those gains. From there the, ice mass balance will decrease. Unless something happens to reverse the declining rate of mass gain. From the authors view, that something will likely be global warming.

    So, global warming denialists see the title of this paper, and believe they have evidence that warmists are wrong because the Antarctic isn't losing ice. Thus they post it without reading it. If they had, they would have seen that the paper isn't saying that the Antarctic isn't losing ice, but is just losing it slower than measured elsewhere. On top of that, they would have picked up the authors believing in global warming, and it will lead to increased snowfall in the Antarctic.

    They didn't even have to read the entire paper. I got that just from the conclusion.
     
    bwilson4web likes this.
  12. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2006
    4,519
    390
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    Calving is not caused by global warming .So whats your point?
     
  13. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2006
    4,519
    390
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    Somethings wrong with Priuschat posting mechanism.Says "unspecified error" when attempting to post a new thread.
     
  14. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Hang in there, it will work eventually. Just wait a bit before each retry. Not waiting is how I end up with embarrassing multi-posts.
     
  15. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
  16. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,115
    10,044
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Calving must not be excluded when making claims about overall ice balance. Leaving it out leads to a fraudulent claim about increasing ice inventory. See also 'fake news'.
     
  17. Paranormal Rob

    Paranormal Rob Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2017
    244
    107
    1
    Location:
    RDU NC
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Five
    Same thing happened every year back to at least 2012. Google it. Every year they get stuck. These are some intelligent people.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,141
    15,399
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,743
    11,328
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    What does calving have to do with less ice being added year after year?
    People trying to make a living may take unnecessary risks. Them getting stuck has nothing to do with the amount of sea ice in the Arctic. People get into car accidents whenever it snows. That doesn't address the question of how many times did it snow.
     
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,141
    15,399
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    How to cite this article: Nicolas, J. P. et al. January 2016 extensive summer melt in West Antarctica favoured by strong El Niño. Nat. Commun. 8, 15799 doi: 10.1038/ncomms15799 (2017).

    My source: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15799

    ABSTRACT

    Over the past two decades the primary driver of mass loss from the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS) has been warm ocean water underneath coastal ice shelves, not a warmer atmosphere. Yet, surface melt occurs sporadically over low-lying areas of the WAIS and is not fully understood. Here we report on an episode of extensive and prolonged surface melting observed in the Ross Sea sector of the WAIS in January 2016. A comprehensive cloud and radiation experiment at the WAIS ice divide, downwind of the melt region, provided detailed insight into the physical processes at play during the event. The unusual extent and duration of the melting are linked to strong and sustained advection of warm marine air toward the area, likely favoured by the concurrent strong El Niño event. The increase in the number of extreme El Niño events projected for the twenty-first century could expose the WAIS to more frequent major melt events.

    This helps explain some of the loss of sea ice around Antarctica this year:
    [​IMG]
    More to read in the article but an interesting start. Instructive for how the Greenhouse gas effects occur with water vapor:

    The observed CLWP [cloud liquid water path rjw] (Fig. 3c) was frequently within 10–40 g m−2, that is, the range where the cloud radiative enhancement effect previously observed over Greenland15 occurs. In this range, the clouds are thick enough to enhance the downwelling longwave radiation (Fig. 4a) but thin enough to also allow shortwave radiation to reach the surface (Fig. 4b). The CLWP was within this range 30–40% of the time during 10–13 January, suggesting that this enhancement mechanism contributed to the melt event. This is further supported by the frequent and widespread occurrence of clouds with CLWP within 10–40 g m−2 simulated by ERA-Interim during the same period (Supplementary Fig. 3 and Supplementary Fig. 5). However, we also notice a significant frequency of CLWP > 40 g m−2 (Fig. 3c), under which shortwave flux is attenuated and longwave flux is similar to blackbody radiation at the cloud effective temperature. These optically thicker clouds represent a contrast to the Greenland cloud radiative enhancement effect in that they signify a more prominent role of thermal blanketing as a consequence of the warm air advection (Fig. 3a,b).

    One of their important points is weather is not deterministic to what we know about climate change:

    These relationships are by no means simple. For example, not all major El Niño events are accompanied by widespread surface melt in West Antarctica (for example, 1997–98); not all prominent West Antarctic melt events coincide with strong El Niño events (for example, 2005); and the magnitude of West Antarctic melt does not scale with the intensity of El Niño events. Accordingly, it is not possible to establish with certainty whether the 2015–2016 El Niño caused (in a deterministic sense) the January 2016 melt event, a problem inherent to weather and climate phenomena24. It is not uncommon for the polar jet around Antarctica to exhibit large meanders, giving rise to warm marine air intrusions3, even in the absence of an El Niño event. Following a probabilistic approach, we seek rather to assess the likelihood of the January 2016 melt event occurring given the concurrent strong El Niño and positive SAM conditions. The statistically small number of El Niño events (especially of strong events such as 1982–83, 1997–98 and 2015–16) observed since 1979 does not permit robust statistical analysis. However, climate model simulations can alleviate this issue by generating larger samples of events.

    I hope @wxman gets a chance to review the paper. In particular, this clear description of how a climate model is used to run a series of Monte Carlo simulations to understand the probability of Antarctica melting events:

    Results from model simulations

    Based on the model SAM Index and series of warm and cold events, we generated a contingency table (Table 1) tallying the number of events per type (warm or cold) and phase of SAM (positive, negative or neutral) across all simulated major El Niño events. Out of 45 El Niños, warm events occur 32 times (71.1%) versus 13 times (28.9%) for cold events. This result is consistent with the known positive impact of the El Niño teleconnection pattern in the South Pacific on West Antarctic temperatures already mentioned6. Out of the 32 warm events, 15 (46.9%) occur during a negative SAM phase. Out of the 13 cold events, 8 (61.5%) occur during a positive SAM phase. The chi-square statistic is significant at P<0.01, meaning that the type of event is significantly dependent on the combined states of El Niño and SAM. Such dependence confirms findings from previous literature7,29,30.

    Bob Wilson

    ps. I drive a Prius because I'm thrifty about burning gas. Yet hybrid skeptics claimed it is because I am making a 'green statement.' The problem is if someone falsely accuses me of something, I'm such an ornery cuss that I'll take a look. This posting is just my follow-up to lies about why I drive a Prius. ... the law of unintended consequences. Add to that @mojo claims about character and motivations, well it just adds fuel to the fire (Hosea 8:7 For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk: the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.)
     
    #80 bwilson4web, Jun 16, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017