Red bullet VVTI seloniod

Discussion in 'Prius c Accessories and Modifications' started by Max Taiwan, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. Max Taiwan

    Max Taiwan Member

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    Hi guys,

    I just received the upgrade VVTI seloniod sample from the manufacture. I am going to instal it and show you guys the difference from a regular valve.
    As it is difficult to shoot a comparison video while driving and hard to show you the felt difference. Let me know what suggestions you have to make it easier to perceive that it really works. Not just my wowing out of my brains.

    Here is a tease of the item. 20190409_092206.jpg 20190409_092206.jpg 20190409_092415.jpg 20190409_092206.jpg
     
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  2. frenzee

    frenzee Member

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    For the uninitiated, can you explain what this thing is supposed to do?
     
  3. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    It adjusts the intake valve timing, but is this aftermarket one going to make the intake valve timing way more awesome than a Toyota valve would?
     
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  4. Max Taiwan

    Max Taiwan Member

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    This is what I'm going to test. It says will advance the activation of VVTI from 3500 rpm to lower rpm giving you access to the power band and also lager ports for efficient actuating.
    I'll mount a phone on my dash for acceleration test for highway merge. But that's a little be limited unless i floor it every merge i do. But you will have to floor every merge to compare. Taking into account merge gradient ... it also says it will lower highway rpm to conserve gas
     
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  5. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Given that it's a straight-up two-terminal electrically-operated valve that gets all of its open/close orders from the ECM (which isn't being replaced or reprogrammed), and the ECM watches the cam position sensor to confirm its orders are being followed, I have to give the whole description I just read the highest marks for marketing artistry.

    I do like the idea of lager ports though. Just the thing for tailgating.
     
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  6. Max Taiwan

    Max Taiwan Member

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    20190409_155205.jpg 20190410_203749.jpg So this is what I experienced. I wouldn't say a lot of horses because its not. There is a increase in felt acceleration but I would say 10-13% tops.
    It is not gonna shave off seconds on your quarter mile drag race but there is a significant amount of power to merge into traffic.
    What I'm guessing is they designed the valve to be already in the partial activated position while even when the ECU is not activating it and will flip to full open earlier in a sense that when your ECU flips the switch it is already giving you maybe a 50% open as minimum.
    Chapman is right about the ECU controlling when to turn on or to turn off the seloniod. I'm going to ask the manufacturer how exactly it gives us access to the VVTI earlier if the signal to do it is given from the ECU independently. But my guess is they positioned the plunger in a semi activated position aready during ECU is sending signals to be in the off phase. Then when your ECU does flip on your seloniod then you're aready starting from a bit aready. Instead from a full close position.
    And also to bear in mind that vvt-i was designed for a conventional idling engine to help with fuel efficiency with idle and lower engine speeds. So for us hybrids we don't really need that low to idle fuel saving retarded performace that the VVTI offers for the low side in conventional engine. Our electric motor is fully capable of doing the low end with way better efficiency in those conditions. But what we want is upper range engine performance so to give us better upper band of the VVTI the earlier the better.
    That's my way of thinking about what i felt.
    I'll update with videos and response from the manufacture within the week.
     
    #6 Max Taiwan, Apr 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  7. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sidewalk Supervisor

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    Well that's no good, lol.

    Don't get me wrong though, always interested to read about stuff like this.
     
  8. Max Taiwan

    Max Taiwan Member

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    Have you seen the sleeper prius? I think they called it the hellcat!
     
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  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    It's not just an on-off valve. It's an advance-hold-retard valve. It's "off" in the middle. When the ECM opens it one way, oil flows to advance the timing; when the ECM opens it the other way, oil flows the other direction to retard the timing.

    When the timing reaches the exact target value the ECM has calculated, it lets the valve close (middle position) so the oil can't flow either direction, and the timing is held.

    Anything causing the timing to be ahead or behind whatever target the ECM calculated will get the ECM to control the valve one way or the other to bring the timing back on target. The beauty of closed-loop feedback. If it can't be brought to the target value, the ECM will set a trouble code.

    vvti.png

    One thing that might be interesting to play with, beyond getting a 13% reading on the butt dyno, would be to connect a 2 channel DSO to the crank position sensor and the cam position sensor, collect both waveforms while driving for a bit, then crunch the data to show the changes in cam advance. And do the same thing with the OEM valve. Maybe you'd be able to spot some difference in the speed of change from one target to another (because of the lager ports). You could read the cam advance from the ECM using OBD-II queries, but for any difference in the ballpark we might be talking here, I don't think OBD queries can be reissued fast enough to catch it, hence the DSO. If it has more than two channels, use a third to just watch the signals being sent to the valve.
     
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  10. Max Taiwan

    Max Taiwan Member

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    I got some information. I'll translate it and update here. They are keeping a few items in the seloniod and valve configuration to need to know basis due to its proprietary nature so they could only give me a discrption but not detail numbers of how exactly they machined the plunger. There are also other items they improved off the stock unit.
     
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  11. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    Here is Toyota's plan
    [​IMG]
    How the swollen red solenoid affects this I am not sure.

    Exhaust timing and duration are fixed.
    Intake duration is fixed, timing is what the solenoid is adjusting
     
    #11 JimboPalmer, Apr 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  12. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    The vane chambers will recognize the proprietary nature of the new valve, and move more awesomely to their new target positions.
     
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  13. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sidewalk Supervisor

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    You can't make this stuff up...
     
  14. Max Taiwan

    Max Taiwan Member

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    Here is what they said they have done to the seloniod valve that will increase performance efficiency:

    1. Increase the strength(force) and speed of the actuator seloniod. From the photo size its very easy to see that it is fatter and longer then the stock. This will give the ECU more authority when changing the position of the oil flow direction.
    Video of the prototype here> on a Toyota Altis platform

    They are not comparing the cycle speed but just the push activation speed being the stock needed to be manually reset for some reason. We are looking at split seconds here but as Jimbo stated there are a lot of desired positions for ECU to accommodate to efficiently utilise the VVTI technology, so getting to the desired position ASAP is important to improve its designed efficacy! This gives you double the speed and force to get to the predetermined position. They used stronger magnets and double the amount of coils to achieve this.

    2. Material and surface finish. Aviation grade aluminum body increase heat stability keeping the orifice surfaces uniform with reduced friction during operation further increase and sustaining response speed gained by the double power output of the seloniod. From Jimbos explanation about how many positions the valve adjustment have to go through, I think every step you gain a bit more response time so times that by 5 steps going up and 5 steps going down. You kind of see where that felt improvement is starting to come out of. Power going up(up hill and acceleration) and fuel saving going down in high speed driving when the engine is constantly running with the drive train.

    3. The material for the center actuator. By using more heat stable alloy (proprietary)sustained of efficient oil channel is achieved in high temperatures where oil paths become narrow and reduce efficiency, this coupled with the Aeronautics grade aluminum body is creating a fine stable smooth surface during operation in various extream temperatures without losing too much metal-metal gap clearance to hinder the gained response speed.

    4. Center actuator port angle designed (proprietary)to increase oil flow efficiency.

    Thank you Jimbo and Chapman for investigating the fundamentals of the VVTI. Without it i was really skeptical too when they sent me the part. I kinda knew that there is ECU closed looping in the mix and you can't set lower end just by using a different switch. But i guess i wasn't looking at the small gains which will amount to an overall performance increase.
    Jimbo really nailed it. I never thought there were so many steps and so much could be gained.
     
    #14 Max Taiwan, Apr 11, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  15. Max Taiwan

    Max Taiwan Member

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    You beat me to it!

    Hi Mendel! Just realised we are from the same city. Well only in summer times! I find it too harsh there in winter months so I opt to stay in Asia instead of going to Mexico!
    So we can EMT if you want one in the future which makes things super easy! Thinking about it everyone can EMT me in North America I believe.
    I will however set up PayPal for members that are not in north America.
     
    #15 Max Taiwan, Apr 11, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2019
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  16. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    @Mendel Leisk is in Canada.
     
  17. Max Taiwan

    Max Taiwan Member

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    Yes I know. I live in Coquitlam in the summer months. But this year I'm doing my PhD and visiting my family in Taiwan. So I usually live in Canada in summer time. Like I said... it is too harsh for me there in winter months.
     
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  18. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    I am originally from the Toronto area but got transplanted to Virginia a long time ago.
     
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  19. Max Taiwan

    Max Taiwan Member

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    Oh cool so you can EMT me too! I shouldn't say Vancouver being harsh info front of you!
    Will get those comparison video soon. At the moment still trying to get some time out of the lab to get it done and to pick a place where I can safely floor it with consistency.
    24 milion population close to Canadian population on the size of Victoria island is a little bit dense! but for the weather, food and the convenience can't go wrong!
    I was thinking about doing a 40km rolling start and hit 100km comparison and a 10km rolling start to 60km with the new part then I'll switch back to the OEM for comparison. This way as long as i use the same stretch of road I should be able to get a comparison result with low P value!
     
  20. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    There was something about Max's posts in this thread that had me thinking this was not a typical thread by a curious PriusChatter wanting to check out some claimed new performance enhancer, but was going to turn out with the same person in business to sell the things.

    It will be good to include enough details (number of repeated runs both with and without the valve, speed profiles from a datalogger, weather conditions, etc.) so that any statistician can follow how the "low P value" will be arrived at.

    Comparative oscilloscope traces of the cam timing advance and retard would still reveal more about what is or isn't going on than a whole slew of indirect measurements.
     
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