My year with the Volt. Costs and Comparisons

The way Volt has been promoted, the benefits of blending will be a hard sell. It will be interesting to see what reports like this thread end up stirring... especially as plug-in hybrids become more available later in the year.

 

It is unfortunate. Hold mode may be the best they will allow for Volt.

ELR spec shows more blending to achieve more power in hybrid mode. I hope that's the direction the next gen Volt goes as well.

 

IMO, the ONLY time it makes sense to use the engine is when the battery is exhausted.

I would agree that a 50mpg engine is an incremental improvement to a 38mpg engine but not at any additional expense. Let's consider the difference in lifetime economics of a 300,000 mile vehicle that is 80% EV (median at voltstats).

80% 300,000 = 240,000 miles
20% 300,000 = 60,000 miles

60,000 miles at 38 mpg = 1,579 gallons
60,000 miles at 50 mpg = 1,200 gallons

379 gallons @ $4 = $1,516 total, or about 1/2 penny per mile.

I would rather see that $1,500 spent on increasing the charging rate from 3.3KW to 6.6KW.

That improvement could move the median to 85% EV and displace more than that 379 gallons.

 

What does this have to do with this tread?

You failed at slinging FUD about the OPs post so you change to unrelated rants items about the engine..
When the engine is backup, used only small percent of the time, its not that a critical improvement.
For the OP, if the Volt engine got 48MPG, the cost would still be 2cents per mile.. i.e. it would be a rounding error.
In my own case, where I have more ICE miles for long trips, since last October I would have save 4.17 gallons or about $.0012 cents per mile; saving less than $1 a month.

Blending is the optimal efficiency strategy only when the range exceeds the battery range, and the only more efficient blending strategy is based on knowing the distance to travel. Far better reduction in gas usage to have a car that has a battery range that meets the drivers need. Seems you cannot wrap your head around the whole EREV model. For people for which it is a match to their driving needs, which is the vast majority of Americans that drive < 50 miles most days, ICE super efficient or blending is largely irrelevant -- its for emergencies and long trips. Maybe that is why you seem bitter, being stuck in the low 80mpgs, despite having only a few long trips so far, your falling short on EV miles and spending much more on gas.

 

A very cold morning when EV range will not complete the entire trip (especially with heater consuming electricity).

I would use gas engine initially to get the cabin temp up then EV the rest of the trip. Rather than turning on the gas engine toward the end of the trip after EV range is depleted.

That's just one example.

I thought Voltstats represent only 10% of all Volt miles. Why don't you use 100% of all Volt miles? 61% EV and 39% HV miles.

Even if we go with the cherry picked data, 379 gallons has energy equivalent of about 1,000 recharges.

Think about the loss of energy and additional emission created by the inefficient. Think about the electricity used to carry the gas powertrain unused.

Using more electricity would generate more emission (required to generate electricity). The idea is to balance out the emission+efficiency (plus refuel time) of the two fuel to strike a balance.


A vehicle that uses two fuels is best to be balanced to achieve optimal performance, practicality and cost. You are just asking for a more EV biased plugin.

I think your household has a gas guzzling SUV. Replacing it with something more efficient would be more beneficial.

 

The Prius in my household guzzles the most gasoline, even more than my SUV.

 

I have, have you?

EREV represents wastefulness. It requires a powerful electric motor sized for maximum power, rather than average need -- coupled with a big battery that can power it. On top of that, you have the infrequently used gas engine that wastes more electricity.

For what? To brag about not using a few ml of gas? Not a good enough reason for me.

What comes down to is the breakdown of each fuel. MPGe for electricity and MPG for gas. It is well known that a midsize PiP is more fuel efficient (both electricity and gas) than a compact Volt.

Majority of the trips are very short. People won't pay extra for the EV miles, they don't need. More EV miles means less interior space and more charging time as well.

 

Yes!, given the choice of using blending in the Volt would have been awsome! Too bad GM missed the boat on this approach. The question I have is, if GM took the blended approach, would they be infringing on Toyota's patents on the HSD?

DBCassidy

I totally agree, the Prius provides this in a most efficient way, hands down!

DBCassidy

 

From your answers, its pretty clear you have not understood EREV. You still talk about averages that make no sense and don't get that if its infrequent, its inefficiency is not as critical. PHEVs are about shifting the fuel to electricity and hence average power demand is irrelevant there. There are cost/benifit tradeoffs to consider, as the tale for long-range is fat, but EREV is about providing power in EV to avoid wasting gas.

The saving is not a few ML of gas, its a few hundred liters per year. Your last post here
My EV Driving ratio | Page 6 | PriusChat
shows you at 40% EV.. saving 20 gallons so far. If you had pushed that up to 80% EV, you would have doubled the gas saved..

If I Pip had been around in Oct 2011, and had I had bough a PiP instead of a Volt I would have used over 100 gallons more gas, i.e. nearly 4x as much gas.

Its not well known.. its your opinion. Its well known the PiP is more efficient on Gas. EV is not so clear since the EPA rating is not comparable for the two. The EV mode of the PiP is only on the Easy parts of the test. At low speeds the Volt may be similarly efficient. The real-world data from Jeff and DevPrius suggests it was or Jeff.

But again you don't get EREV as a concept. Since EV is more efficient, then its not just the per-item efficiency, its also the mix of frequency of usage.

Unless you have ubiquitous charging, its not the per trip length, but milage between charges that matters. e.g. see

You are diligent, but not even close to the 60%EV your chart suggests someone might obtain with 10miles of EV, which is less than the PiP should get. In fact, you are not much better than predicted by the daily average range.

And from a pragmatic point of view, if plugging in will save someone 40 miles, or about 1 gallon or 3-4$, they are more likely to do it, than plugging in to save 12miles or saving under a dollar. So less diligent people won't bother to plug in for a very short trip.. unless its super convenient so for the next decade or so miles per day is probably a better estimate for %EV usage.

This thread is about a driver that has a 35mile each way commute and nearly 97% EV ratio. Why aren't you at 70% or better if the blending model is optimal.

The OP averaged 102MPGe.. you are at about 70MPGe.. what is that about optimal blend? EREV seems to have better overall efficiency for that comparison.

 

Why would you even consider driving the SUV? You are so "gas adversed" to using the Prius, why would you even mentioned the SUV to begin with?

UNLESS, you are leaving the SUV parked and using the Prius to justify the logic (twisted) in your post above.

O.K., then lets apply the above logic to the Prius being parked with the SUV. Now, the VOLT is the gas guzzler.

DBCassidy

This thread reminds me when the original BEV came on the market (early 1900's). Then, the gasoline engine came on the marketplace and quickly replaced the BEV.

Energy density of a tank of gas, even to this day, is still much greater than the energy density of a fully charged BEV. This is what car buyers and industry realized in the early days of automobile travel.

Todays' BEV have not overcome that barrier, and until it can, gasoline will still reign as the top dog.
Prius, as mentioned numerous times maximizes the gas and electrical motor efficiency. Volt can't claim that.

DBCassidy

 

Toyota won't have patent on hybridization itself. It a very old idea. Using an EREV approach made it easier for the car to be tested in it's normal usage of driving EV.

 

The plug-in Prius doesn't maximize efficiency. It has a 1.8 liter engine, for a start. That adds weight and lowers efficiency for anyone using the engine for heating or higher speed. (As my wife would every single 6 mile round trip commute). It uses a 1.8 liter engine because the Prius does, not because it's the optimal displacement.

Secondly, given that the most commonly used comparative models exclude the military and human costs of petroleum dependency for transportation and the costs of point-of-use pollution it's not accurate to compare energy sources on a straight Joule to Joule basis.

Thirdly you can't compare approaches until the same companies use the other approach. I have little doubt that a Prius 38 would be more efficient than a Volt simply because it'd be lighter.

Fourth, talking about generalities with PHEV is even more ridiculous than with ICEVs because the relative efficiencies vary wildly with use and supply.

Finally, you also have to be able to sell the car to apply the efficiency savings. Hybrid market share is no more than 3% despite consideration being at record levels and the fundamental blocker, in my opinion, is not cost but performance. That's one area where a short range PHEV will always have difficulty in any comparison. If plug-ins are to succeed batteries need to be cheap and if batteries are cheap range is cheap and performance doesn't cost much more. To like the PiP you have to like the Prius, to like the Volt you need to like a smooth quiet ride, to like the Model S you just need not to hate cars.

 

I believe key HSD patents will expire in 2015. Perhaps, GM will be able to add blended approach to increase the maximum power with smaller components -- increasing efficiency of both electricity and gas while reducing cost.

That's a conflicting statement. PiP is a Prius with plugin capability. After the PHV battery is depleted, it runs like a regular Prius.

It is still rated 50 MPG on gas and that is due to the 1.8L engineered for high speed. See SAE 2009-01-1061 paper. It is a great read about this engine. Maybe you can name another gas engine in another PHEV that is more efficient?

 

And that is the problem as well. For a driver that is willing to drive a Prius, the PiP is an alternative. For drivers that want something other than a Prius, the PiP is not a consideration.

Do you think Toyota will do a PHEV Avalon soon? or a GS ?

On second thought ... don't try to answer that here. This is a thread about voltdriver's experience with the Volt.

 

Nope. You're missing the point. The PiP blends more. The PiP runs the engine purely heat. The idea that an engine designed for a hybrid is the best for a plug-in hybrid is utterly ridiculous. They use the same engine to lower production costs, not to maximize efficiency and the Gen 3 uses the engine it does not to maximize efficiency, but because it increased the power in order to sell more of them. Toyota did more than just change the displacement between Gen 2 and Gen 3. They improved warm-up times, improved aerodynamics, eliminated the serpentine belt, and made some other improvements. Despite all of that, put a good hypermiler in a Gen 2 and they can still do better than in a Gen 3. Of course, how can I know for sure when Toyota never made a Gen 3 1.5L?

The Volt's engine could have been more efficient had they stuck with smaller displacement. They abandoned it because of the intrusive sound. It could still be more efficient but for economic reasons they used an old engine. Like Toyota they were focused on profit. I don't mind claims of efficiency but willy-waving fanbois holding any current vehicle up as a paragon of efficiency are comical when engineering, design, accounting and marketing departments expend a lot effort balancing different consumer demands.

 

How often do you use more than 50 hp? I have monitored it on my driving and I hardly use it. My old commute at 70 mph uphill takes about 30 hp to sustain. My typical acceleration to keep up with traffic takes less than 30 hp.

PiP PHV battery was sized to provide most frequent power. Volt's battery and electric motor was sized to provided hardly used maximum power. On top of that, the infrequently used gas engine represent another layer of overhead that contributes to inefficiency.

Shifting fuel from gasoline to electricity compromises efficiency for both fuel beyond 11 EV miles. I am not willing to sacrifice efficiency (and increase emission) for the sake of shifting fuel, but you are.

My PiP shifts 40% of my miles to EV while reducing total emission. I am not willing to shift anymore (until technology improves), by consuming more electricity or gasoline per mile. I think PiP has a perfect balance with consideration of cargo space as well.

BEVs are about shifting to electricity. PHEVs are about using both fuels efficiently. When a PHEV is biased toward any fuel, the total efficiency drops and emission increases. It is my belief that a vehicle that runs from two fuels ought to balance properly and optimizes for both.

A compact 4 seater Volt wouldn't work for me. Even if I compensate for it and get 80% EV, I would use 16 gallons less @40 MPG (I used 29 gallons @54 MPG on gas miles). I'll also have to use premium instead of regular.

I will also use 393 kWh more electricity @320Wh/mi (PiP @263Wh/mi). That extra electricity would require about 280 hours to charge, just to shift 16 gallons. That's about 17.5 hours of charging per gallon shifted. Not practical for me.

Volt would cost more to operate and to purchase as well. I got my PiP for $25.2k after incentives.

What is the source of that graph? It is inconsistent with SAE J1711 utility factor. Per EPA, PiP covers 29%, C-Max Energy covers 48% and Volt covers 66%.

You seem to be hung up on the boosted MPGe number from ignoring electricity production.

I am averaging 128 MPGe on electric miles. If I include the 42% fuel production efficiency of electricity, it would come down to 51.2 MPGe (well-to-wheel).

My gas efficiency is 54 MPG. With 85% gas production efficiency, it comes down to 45.9 MPG (well-to-wheel).

Composite of the two should be around 48 MPGe (well-to-wheel). What does your well-to-wheel come out to?

PiP has electric heaters. They are embedded in the seats for quicker direct heat transfer. It doesn't have to run the gas engine unless you need to defog. Your wife cannot drive below 62 mph for her 3 miles one way short commute? I think it is silly to claim the need to go that fast for such a short commute.

I am sure it is part of the reason why 1.8L was chosen. 1.8L gas engine is more efficient than 1.5L that it replaced. I really wish you read SAE 2009-01-1061 before commenting.

The 1.8L engine was also optimized for the plug-in application (SAE 2011-37-0033).

Are you saying the Gen2 1.5L ICE would be more efficient for PiP?

 

Uh, again you miss the point of an EREV. It's so that you can use a single vehicle to cover most driving on EV. Owning additional vehicles is expensive and not necessarily practical. Rental costs can quickly add up and make a BEV uneconomical.

DrI pays for wind power. I think his well to wheel is pretty good.

You seem hung up on measured efficiency and content to ignore the externalities, though.

 

I know the point of EREV and I also know that shifting fuel beyond the practical point is past the point of diminishing return. If there is a midsize PHEV40 that also gets 50 MPG on gas, there is no question about it. Until then, there is a cost in shifting more than 29% of the miles to electricity.

Many of the Volt owners have another gas powered vehicle in the household.

Wind power relies on fossil fuel to handle the change in load. He may be paying a few cents extra to get green credit but chances are that, he is consuming fossil fuel electricity as Colorado grid has 63% coal, 28% Gas and 6% Wind, per eGrid 2012 data.

We'll have a scenario where you pay for apples but actually consume oranges. As long as there are people consuming oranges, farms will keep producing oranges.

 

Just about every day.. when I leave work I go from dead stop into a 3 lane parkway were cars are moving fast. There is no light in this section so I come close to flooring it. On ramps to the highway is also agressive. (Torque does not, yet, let me log EV HP).

BEV are shifting only if they have enough range. If I had a leaf I would use more gas, not less, because on longer trips I would ahve to use our CUV rather than the Volt.

PHEV is about balance.. jsut a question of what balance means. To me it means the best fuel for the right job.. EV for commuting and ICE when I have to go really far.

Well if you need 5 seats, then its not about the efficiency but the space. Why people argue for SUVs too-- space, AWD and visibility. All good reasons for choosing vehicles.

Premium vs regular is about cost, not efficiency.

That is from the 2009 National survey, presented in a recent thread here on priuschat.. its using 2009 data.. SAE is based on 2001 data.
Plug-In Prius misrepresentation | Page 3 | PriusChat

Well-to-wheel is not the right metric, in my view, have too look at whole life cycle or enery-return on energy invested. Today, we spend more energy looking for and drilling than we do refining.
If you consider the energy for exploration and drilling, the efficiency of petro goes down much farther, to below 35%
with 2007 EROI for discovery/drilling at 5:1 and production at 10:1.. the combined rate is below 5:1.
(You can see many EROI studies at
Sustainability | Special Issue: New Studies in EROI (Energy Return on Investment))
So WTW is just misleading as its ignoring more than half the upstream energy.


But for concreteness, let's play your game.. which I'll label MPG-U


On electric miles I'm averaging 125MPGe (since I filled up in August) over 3505 miles and 40.5 on ICE over 531 miles.
So even with your Oil-favoring WTW, and ignoring my use of renewables I'm at an overall 49.1 MPG-U by your model.

SO Even at your own rigged game, you lose.


Adjusting WTW to be full EROI (using .35 overall efficiency for petrol and reducing electricity at to .38), mine drop to 36, but yours drops to 25!


Pulling this back tot he thread, The OP, is at 97% EV.. and while GHG is not something he is concerned about, he is doing well at over 46MPG-U. Not quite as good as either of us, but not bad for someone that is not worried about GHG at all and far closer to an average driver. (Neither you or I are average).

Factor in that I'm paying for all-wind based, hence its fuel production efficiency is much higher, say even just 70% (allowing for 30% fuel usage because I cannot alway get wind or cause grid inefficiencies), then I would be at 72 MPG-U.

(And hopefully I'll be adding solar later this year, so EV mode will be very clearly renewable), as I believe the recent changes I've been pushing for in my electric utility will be adopted at the march meeting, then I'll be able to do net-solar + buy wind (not solar) so I'll be using wind at night and selling back excess solar during the day -- pushing my "renewable" to over nearly 150% of my total usage ;-)

How are you going to shift more to renewables? How will you get to 70+ MPG-Y[/quote]

 

Can it monitor the battery amp or voltage? Power can be derived from it. Even the amp is good enough. We can multiply it by the nominal voltage.

We agree on that. That's what I do with my PiP also. The difference is, your gas MPG is lower because your commute is further, requiring heavier battery that also rob interior room.

Since my daily commutes are very short and weekend drivers are much further, my EV ratio (by miles) is deceptive. The bottom line is, I consume less energy than you.

It is not just about you vs me in your plugin vs my plugin. It is really about averaging with others driving the same cars, given an equal opportunity to purchase. EPA has already done the ground work (based on SAE effort) with statics (though outdate) for us.

Thanks, I forgot about seeing that. Nearly 80% of trips are 11 miles or under. There is a lot of potential for charging multiple times a day.

This is not a game about winning or losing. To me, this is about constructive discussion.

For my figures, I have used my lifetime average. Why don't you as well, instead of using your last tank?

49.1 MPG (well-to-wheel) is pretty good for a compact. 48 for midsize is just as good.

You and OP have extreme EV ratio among Volt owners. The average from the realworld data is 61% EV (EPA estimated 64-66%, depending on model year) so that weights more than a few extreme data points.

I don't know the actual EV ratio for PiP but EPA estimates 29%. I am not too far away from EPA estimates.