New Prime or Ioniq 5

My point was to introduce the subject of charging drop, which is exactly what that sample showed... followed by the advice to seek detail. There's nothing disingenuous about pointing out an influencing factor. In this case, the sample you provided confirms that drop. Once you get somewhere past 50%, using the faster station (350 kW max instead of 150 kW max) doesn't appear to make any difference.

Think about how many Prius owners assumed the gas tank indicator was linear. We routinely have to deal with assumptions. This is another source of confusion and potential disenchantment. Coming from a Prius Prime, the assumption that there isn't a drop until just prior to reaching full is realistic. BEV differ quite a bit from PHEV, hence the effort to raise awareness on a thread asking about differences.

Ironically, the "applies to all" is actually the case. There is indeed a big drop somewhere around when SOC reaches half.

 

Exactly!
Very inexpensive home charging. When on a road trip the charging costs a bit more.
Depending on the comparison, it could still be cheaper doing a road trip in an EV.

I can answer this easily. What do you pay per kWh at home?

When on that road trip if varies per network.
Look up Abetterrouteplanner and play around with a road trip in a fictional EV.
The price for each stop is spelled out!

1.Lots. Look it up. Electrify America is the big cross country network, thanks to VW cheating.
There are many others. You don't need them in your 'area' you need them on the route to where you are going.
2. You may be '4 to 5 years' late with this luddite statement.
3. Maybe just a bit more for the highest power DCFC units. Maybe not. Look it up.
4. At the moment, the going rate. Still can be cheaper in the long run than burning that smelly stuff.
Never sit there not charging. If you do, 'idle fees' should cost you a bundle, imo.
Most users avoid the long taper from 80% to 100%.
5. Say what?
6. Exactly as long as it takes to have the charge necessary to get to the next stop with a predefined buffer.
There's an app for that!

I'll tell you something that is not a gimmick but a BUG.
Scheduling, taking the time, paying the price and making the waste to get an oil change every 10k miles, regardless of the amount of miles the engine was used. Some PHEV's are not so smart....

 

Hoo Boy, ,
maybe you and others have that assumption.
But anyone doing minimal research on new EV's will know that DCFC charging has a curve.
As said, most don't stay beyond what is needed to get to where they are going and never see the slowest part of that curve.

 

The study published recently linked on the thread I posted goes further granularity than that. Not everyone agrees on the number they are using for the real-world cost, but it is one data point. Read the 36 pages study results and comment in the thread if you like. If ITLTD... oh well.

 

Yep, TL.
Short answer for me: ~$0.125 / kWh.
I don't need any finer granularity than that.

 

I did, it's why BBB is needed so desperately. That "lots" is seen through the rose-colored glasses of enthusiasts. Know your audience.

Again, know your audience. Ordinary consumers don't pay attention to detail and that "most" is just anecdotal based on early-adopter use.

 

With the rate of $0.25/kWh in my area, I already know any BEV will cost more to operate than my current PP. But I still want to learn all the granularity on the cost of owning and operating a BEV. One day, I may convince myself that despite the higher cost of owning and operating a BEV, I will make that switch.

 

It will be interesting to see what comes about with regard to that data. Understanding efficiency and related cost is a complicated topic.

Based on my experience (software engineer for 30 years), most users will never figure out granularity or even seek that detail. They will simply follow platform changes as evidence of the majority shifting becomes apparent. That's why I focus so much on infrastructure instead. We need lots of DCFC stations and the slow (50 kW) are just fine, though the faster (150 kW) would be nice.

Seeing growth in the number of 50 kW stations is most realistic due to cost. The state of Minnesota has already laid out plans for funding and those are the targeted DCFC speed. Lots of them will help the shift come about. The locations that are frequently visited will get the next round of funding, to add more stations and faster speed.

Think about the need to educate with 50 kW stations. There isn't any curve. You'd get a solid 50 kW all the way through. There would be no impact to other stations either, since capacity to the location is often limited which can cause a slowdown... yet another charging factor rarely addressed.

The point is you have to start somewhere. This is just like the challenges we had to address for hybrids... lots of influencing factors, many of which people were completely unaware of. That's the nature of technology rollout, hence leveraging my own career experience with audience.

 

John, you quoted me for a wrong reply. LOL

 

Wrong what?

 

Read your own comment #28.

You quoted my comment.
"With the rate of $0.25/kWh in my area, I already know any BEV will cost more to operate than my current PP. But I still want to learn all the granularity on the cost of owning and operating a BEV. One day, I may convince myself that despite the higher cost of owning and operating a BEV, I will make that switch."
on your comment #28. What you commented has nothing to do with my quoted comment.

 

You brought up cost and I responded with content related to cost. DCFC is part of BEV ownership, part of the equation of cost.

Is your consideration of a BEV based upon an assumption that you will never use a DCFC to charge?

 

You make some good points.
Such as in the early days of DCFC some owners were given a free charging card by the manufacturer.
So some would hangout and charge to 100% even though the end taper had them charging at less than L2 amounts.
Some were apartment dwellers that got a Leaf for a song with various rebates stacked on top of each other.
Some were just "It's Free!" and thought they'd get every last drop.

Out on the lonesome highway these days, while doing an EV Road Trip, I doubt you'll run into that situation. No Leaf's!
People have destinations to get to and know how to efficiently use an EV to Road Trip. There's an app for that!

1. Most EV drivers don't care about 'granularity'. They have at most three charging options. Home. Public L2's (some of which are free!) and DCFC.
That second sentences is.....

2. No Li-ion pack can be charged at max rate 'all the way through'. There will always be a taper in Amps to keep the Voltage below a threshold.

 

OK, if you did not misquoted me by mistake, then, I am sorry but our conversation is not in synch. I am afraid, but I have no idea what you are talking about. My comment was simply meant to express my disappointment on how expensive BEV operating cost is in my area. That is all. How the public chargers work may be an important topic but it does not interest me enough to read the detail until I see more of them around me and I have a car to utilize such a charger. First thing first, I have to be able to afford to own a BEV.

 

Always try to calculate Total Cost of Ownership when comparing cars, as you know...
DCFC usage would totally depend on how often you hit the road.
Would you calculate your hours spent on the gasser maintenance requirements?

Maintenance is almost nonexistent with a BEV. Tire rotations? If you feel like it.
I tend to use up the front tires quicker than I would with a gasser because EV's are so much silent fun!
And flogging an EV vs tiptoeing an EV is a single digit % in efficiency.
So why not enjoy and demonstrate what your EV can do to your audience. (Dang it, now I'm talking like that other guy....)

 

Of course, I do. Comparing just fuel cost or purchasing price is so short-sighted. Ever since I bought my first hybrid (2008 HCH), I have been keeping a record of every penny I spent on every car, including maintenance, repair, insurance, tax, fees, and of course fuel (or electricity). And when I sold the car, I have a precise price I have paid for the car.

I compiled the true total cost of ownership for my last 5 vehicles, including my current 2021 PP with the assumption of trading it now at market value. As you see, the current PP(2021) and previous PP(2020) are actually money makers. There is no way any BEV will beat or match the economy of PP. It would have been interesting to compare the regular gasser (1998 Civic) I was driving before those five cars into the analyses, but I did not keep the record of all the spending on that car.

The point is... I can not find a BEV that is as affordable as PP is.

Future Toyota Prime PHEVs: How much range and performance? | Page 2 | PriusChat
Here are the 5 hybrid cars I owned and the true cost of ownership. There is no way, I could have pulled off anything close to the number I get for PP if I purchased Tesla M3 or any BEVs on the market even if it was a very cheap used Leaf.

• 2008 HCH EX $0.344/mi $344/mo total 83000 miles 83 months
• 2015 Prius Two $0.584/mi $682/mo total 35000 miles 30 months
• 2017 PP Premium $0.344/mi $261/mo total 40000 miles 31 months
• 2020 PP LE -$0.444/mile -$161/mo total 3600 miles 10 months
• 2021 PP Ltd -$1.672/mile -$1,195/mo total 3600 miles 5 months

Of course, your circumstances may be different. Higher initial purchase price without the regional rebate, cheaper electric price, etc. YMMV for sure.

 

I'm sure you have your exact number for TCO!
I bought a lease return for a song at the right time. Running the numbers with brand new cars are totally different.
I'm not running my numbers. I'm fairly sure they are low and getting lower compared to a similar gasser.

What about your hours spent dealing with maintenance? Harder to calculate, I'm sure...

 

For the last 5 years, the only maintenance I DIYed on Prius or PP are changing tires snow/summer sometimes. Toyota includes 2.5 years/25Kmile free maintenance on all new cars. So, maintenance cost was minimal, maybe two oil changes I had the dealer do on Gen3 and 2017PP for the 30K service. Even if I would have kept the car longer than 30K, the only maintenances I will do is tire change and oil and filter. If I had someone do it for me, then you are taking less than $100/year for maintenance. Unless I keep the car longer than 10 years, the cost of maintenance is not big. Certainly, I don't see BEV saving any more than a few hundred dollars on oil/filter for the life of ownership. I still have to change tires, and maybe have a brake job.

 

Yep, seasonal wheel set changes. I need to put the winter wheels on my two EV's, DIY like you!

I'm sorry, but the point I'm trying to make is even a 'free oil changes at the dealer' requires your time.
Call to make the appointment.
Later, walk out the door to drive the car to the dealer.
Then whatever you do while the car is getting this service.
And then the drive home.

Minor point, but EV's get that small advantage.

 

Yeah, no oil change would be a good thing. But not a big enough cost advantage for me. For one thing, pre-pandemic, I actually enjoyed once every 6-month dealer visit to get the free maintenance along with free car wash, free coffee, and free ice cream, and have a chance to do some city shopping and dining. Now with a pandemic, I am not so eager to visit a city or anywhere, so I am doing most maintenance DIY at home with oil/filter delivered to me. Even though I do not enjoy getting my hands dirty with used oil, at least I get to check the area of the car I don't otherwise see usually. That may be a good thing, for I am always worried about how quickly rust is developing on the underbody parts of cars I own. For a BEV without the need to do an oil change, I may miss the underbody rust spots.