Poll: Why are we hated?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by 310, Jun 27, 2012.

  1. pingnak

    pingnak New Member

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    The Volt is becoming 'real'. But with production stops and high prices, it isn't.
    volt production - Google Search
     
  2. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    Your reading old news.

    The Volt sold 1760 last month... Leaf 535. The numbers on other EV/PHEVs have yet to be posted, but its likely that like last month the volt likely sold about as many as all the other EV/PHEVs, including the PiP, combined. Year to date its the Volt at 8817 has pasted its 2011 total still climbing. Total sales since launch make it the the top selling EV/EREV in the US.

    Demand for all of them is lower than hoped.. but the Volt is not a compliance play, it is real. Just as the original Prius was real but the market was slow to understand and accept it.
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    Your join date and absence of Prius history suggests ignorance of how clueless this posting appears:
    For over a decade, the Prius community has put up with false or wildly distorted claims such as:
    • No payback (Consumer Reports)
    • Won't last (various)
    • Too hard to work on (various)
    • We're all liberal (various)
    • We're all 'green' (various)
    • We're judgmental (you)
    • Not as good as a diesel (the Green Human 'race')
    • A Chevy Aveo is just as good (GM, CNW Marketing)
    • Environmental disasters to build (CNW Marketing, Sunday Mail)
    • Batteries won't last (across the board)
    • Prius nickel destroyed a mining town in Canada (Sunday Mail)
    • Mileage is not as good as the EPA numbers (various)
    • Handling and interior are miserable (Consumer Reports and others)
    • Prius are hazardous to pedestrians and bicyclists (Automotive Alliance, National Federation of Blind, NHTSA)
    Long before the first Volt ever left the factory, Prius were modified with plug-in kits designed, built and integrated by individual Prius pioneers.We've been doing EV shortly after 2004 when the EV pin was first documented.

    An ignorant put-down of Prius owners, "Pious," by a Prius-skeptic is not persuasive., Lord Voltimore. Rather it suggests a Volt owner with too much hubris to be taken serious. Seriously if you want to sell a Volt, stop trying to put down the Prius and Prius owners in the house of Prius. We're glad you like your ride but perhaps your time might be better spent in a TDI forum. Otherwise, someone might point out:
    • Where is the Volt's 5th seat?
    • How do we carry all of our stuff in a compact Volt?
    • How do 25-30% of Americans who live in apartments plug-in their Volt?
    • What is the profit motive for employers to add Volt plug-in stations?
    • How do people who drive over 100 miles per day justify the Volt 36 MPG post EV?
    • Why should we trust a GM that crushed the EV1s, to 'do the right thing?' with the Volt?
    • Where is the next model Volt, the one scaled up with 5 seats and luggage?
    Rather than calling the Volt superior to the Prius, just cut-and-paste your examples. Nothing like seeing the same thing over and over again to inspire admiration and confidence . . . it works so well in commercials.

    Bob Wilson
     
    XRinger, KK6PD, edthefox5 and 4 others like this.
  4. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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  5. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    You are correct I've never owned a prius. I bought my previous car in 1995.. before Prius existed. I bought again in 2011.
    Considered, rented them for more than a week twice to help decide, but never owned.

    That does not make my post clueless. I've read PC for years, did not join until I had enough time and saw the volt bashing. I don't attack the prius.. its a great car. Just like the Prius was attacked improperly for years, so too are people attacking the Volt.





    The "Pious" is not my terms.. its from the the south park episode cited in this thread Poll: Why are we hated? | PriusChat
    and Poll: Why are we hated? | Page 2 | PriusChat
    My post was a response to such an attack on the volt and point out that such smugness is part of the answer to the ops question. I had a lot more respect for prius owners until I started reading here. There are some great people here, and some less than ideal.


    Nothing in any of my posts ever said any car is better in all dimensions. There are always choices. You are free to point out these issue, many here already have. Unfortunately you get a few things wrong. To answer your questions

    Many people don't need a 5th seat and/or if a compact donsn't do it for you, don't by a 4seater compact. That's your choice. Note 5 is just as arbitrary as 4? why not 6 or 7 seater and argue for a bug SUV.

    If you live in an appartment and cannot charge, don't buy a plug-in car even a Plug-in Prius (though if you are in an apartment and buying to get HOV, then buy a Plug in Prius.. )

    Plug-in stations are not for Volt, they are for plug-in cars, of which the Volt is only one type. Company provide many different benefits to keep employees happy/healthy and motivated. Happy/motivated employes are generally considered more productive. Ironicly, I'll bet a much higher fraction of Prius Plug-in Drivers owners use plug out-side of the home than Volt owners -- most Volt owners have enough range for a day's driving.

    Hopefully doing 100miles a day they can plugin in at work providing 130-140MPG overall per day. For 100miles without charging, the volt is still viable.. it gets 40MPG highway and if driving 100miles a day its likely a big chunk is highway. 100-35 = 65miles/40MPG = 1.65gallons (all EPA estimates) If you get 50mpg from your prius (above the EPA for highway), its 2 Gallons. What is your point again?

    If you don't trust GM, don't buy GM.

    I don't predict the future so I cannot say when GM will have a next release. Until then don't buy a 4 seater if you need 5 seats. Next genration volt is expected in 2015, but I would consider it unlikely it will change the seating to 5.
     
  6. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    Not sure where the link is supposed to go?

    I'll take the bet only if I can bet on the side that GM was a partial supporter.
    I'm not defining GM, just the Volt. If the Volt was made by someone else I'd have been happier. If the Prius PHV had a much better EV range I'd probably be driving one .
     
  7. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    drinnovation, the link shows up automatically when I reply to a post. It does seem rather useless, now that you point it out. I just incorrectly assumed that it linked to the post I (partially) quoted.

    I am not sure what a 'partial supporter' means. I wager GM paid for the garbage. I propose the loser pays for a very nice coffee. I would say beer, but I hate the stuff.

    Cheers!
     
  8. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    Partial supporter meaning both GM was one of many supporting it and also meaning only some in the organization were anti-green. I expect the anti-hybrid supported in part by various people in all of the big3 plus people like the Koch brothers. They were all funding CNW type of drival back then.. supporting their short term view of their bottom line, which is tied to ICE sales. But they are also all complex large organizations and some people within them may have been trying to do the right thing.. EV1 was not done to tail or from spite, but a belief it could, eventually, be important for them.

    If you ever swing by the springs..(now that we not on fire), PM me and I'll buy you a coffee.


    Back to the topic.. my point was if people feel the prius is hated/attacked, look to those in the community attacking others for at least part of the cause. I resisted commenting until such an attack was made, and unfortunately pointing it out only resulted in more FUD-flinging.
     
  9. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Liberals and Republicans argue, fight and sling mud, but that is different than the FUD the prius community has had to deal with, and in large part it has come from the right wing in addition to corporations like GM. The point I wish to make is that the Prius community has for the most part been attacking AFTER it was provoked. That was the substance of Bob Wilson's post.

    No doubt that prolongs the fight, but I'll continue to remember where the FUD started. I completely understand your Volt purchase; I would have held my nose and perhaps (perhaps!) considered the same in your shoes. Lucky for me I guess, my situation is different. I can choose the most environmentally sound car that fits my needs, and not suffer the cognitive dissonance of supporting that scum of a company that is GM.
     
  10. Insight-I Owner

    Insight-I Owner 2006 Insight-I MT + 2011 Prius

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    Personally I feel that the Volt EV-then-ICE with no regen is a poor design. I believe blended use is a smarter approach. If I state my opinion, am I "attacking" the Volt?

    There are also cost and size considerations which IMHO limit the situations that the Volt will fit. That's an opinion too.
     
  11. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Are you saying that the Volt has no regen in CS mode ? I don't think this is correct.
     
  12. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    The size issue is a fact, and can clearly impact a preference choice. If you need 5 seats, then you don't want a volt.

    Stating your personal preferenes, if presented that way, is never attacking. However, if your statement is incorrect,such as implying then volt does not do regen, then expected to be corrected. The Volt does have regen, lots of regen. Volt in L applies regen when you take your foot off the accelerator that feels like downshift to low in a manual (almost the max regen deceleration you can apply without needing to turn on brake lights).

    You can express an opinion on what is smarter, but can also be challenged on that. Blended may be smarter if one considers was was cheaper for toyota to do (one dimension of being smart), but its not more efficient (a different dimension of being "smart". Blended is not the optimal efficiency approach, which it depends on lots of dimensions, see whole threads/posts on that, e.g. see Turn your Prius into a EREV (or close) | Page 2 | PriusChat). However I've also posted that EV then CS is also sub-optimal, just less so with a big battery. (Optimal is closer to ev-then-blend-X where blend-X exhausts the battery just as the trip ends).

    If you prefer blended and consider it smarter because you like the sound of the engine, or the excess heat it throws off, then that is a preference and your welcome to it, just as SUV owners are welcome to their feeling of security and their size preference.

    I'll also note that I did not say you were attacking.. if you look, I was responding to this post


    which was an unprovoked attack on the Volt that is way beyond "fact" or even stating a prefernce. Rather the post is implying evil motives for the production of the Volt. Worse then that, for support it cites an article that explicitly said the volt is NOT a compliance car, yet the poster cites it as if it was supporting their position. Thus I corrected thier incorrect use of the citation and expressed by belief why such attacks could make people dislike (some) prius owners (which is what the thread was abut).
     
  13. Insight-I Owner

    Insight-I Owner 2006 Insight-I MT + 2011 Prius

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    Apologies, I was unclear. What I meant was regen by the ICE, using an efficient ICE, not braking regen or decel regen.

    What the standard Prius does admirably is to regen while the ICE is running, stacking regen on top of the propulsion needs in an attempt to keep the ICE running in an economical way. I run the battery down running ICE-off, then (hopefully) regen it during a stretch where I need additional power from the ICE anyway.

    Unfortunately, the standard Prius battery doesn't have the capacity that I could use, so the ICE turns on to do regen at suboptimal points. This is where I would like a larger battery, but I would also like to be able to regen it at favorable times rather than have it go into CS mode.

    It would also be handy to be able to program it so that the battery would be exhausted just at the end of a trip where a charger is available.

    For all flavors of PHEV/EREV/EV's we will probably see a maximum battery size due to (a) cost, (b) weight, and (c) time to recharge. High voltage DC chargers cut recharge time but may have tradeoffs in terms of reduced battery life. It also remains to be seen how battery life will work out given that these vehicles cycle the battery over a wider range and with high current drains vs the typical hybrid battery.

    As for size, the Prius Liftback is exactly the size needed to carry the stuff I need to carry. It's not a question of seats, it's more internal volume for "stuff": 9'6" sculling oars, shell riggers, luggage, dog.
     
  14. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    If we are both using efficiency to mean powerplant-wheel energy/mile, then it surely is when the source fuel is the same fossil.
     
  15. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    Still unclear you you mean, at least to me. the original prius is always in "CS mode", using the engine to keep the battery approximately charged to a near fixed level, but dipping into that power at times and recharging it with the HSD parallel hybrid mode where excess power from the ice charges the battery.

    The CS mode in the Volt does that too. The Prius is more efficient in how it does things as it traded power for efficency. There are also overall factors such as weight and areodynamics (which impacts styling). where the prius is better. Its not just the HSD or atkison cycling. For example, the Lexus HS was designed a similar overall HSD architecture as the prius, but with a different engine and gearing to produce more power (e.g. 0-60 in 8.4 seconds.. just a tad faster than the Volt's 8.9. like the Volt). The Lexus HS, was a bit lighter than the volt, yet it only acheived 35city/34 highway.

    You might be surprised what you can get in a Volt's hatchback. E.g a 9' surfboard
    Lets see you do that C,Volt,Fit | PriusChat
    But i would agree is less usable luaggage space, especially with 4 people in the car
    http://priuschat.com/photos/luggage-jpg.8374/standalone
    at Luggage Volume 18 cu.ft vs 22 cu.ft.
     
  16. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    We all know an efficient ICE in a hybrid can be snuffed by a transmission choice. Just ask Honda.
     
  17. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    I've not seen a study that looked at it that way... and I think it would depend on what fossil fuel you choose to use.
    And if one uses renewables for charging, then its never the same fuel.

    A blended PHEV strategy is about shaving the peak power demands from the ICE using battery. If Battery is not more efficient than ICE, then the peak shavings is not a great idea. If battery is more efficient than, using all of it on every trip is more important. (Blended CS mode is a different dimension.. as all power comes from the ICE directly (via powersplit) or indirectly (via regen), so blended is the only choice of operation to really use the electricity.
     
  18. Insight-I Owner

    Insight-I Owner 2006 Insight-I MT + 2011 Prius

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    What I meant was that I run EV for long periods of time (as long as terrain and speed permit), recharge with the ICE, and repeat. SOC goes up to 5 or 6 and then down to 3 or 2. This is different from running EV for an initial period and then going into CS mode.

    Boats go outside. Oars could go onto the rack but they'd add a little weight and would be one more thing to strap down (or fall off!). There is a front snubdown which is not in place here.:
    2x on Prius.jpg
     
  19. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    You don't mean "regen". In this context you mean "charge". It is not regeneration when the ICE charges the battery.

    Tom
     
  20. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    Yep the Volt does that too. If one is doing say 55 it cycles the ICE on and off maybe 4-5min off, 3-4min on, varying the SOC around the CS setpoint (allowing a swing of abbout .75 kw if I recall.) It can go for many miles in CS mode with the ICE off -- depends on the terrain and speed -- my best is about 14 miles of ICE free CS mode.

    yep.. that's not going inside any car. What type of MPG do you get carrying that? Must depend on the wind speed/direction too.
     
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